VSK Match Forum

Rule 18.2 (b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.

Rule 23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg.

CALL E13 ..... A has already sailed to the mark and must now sail to the next mark to continue
sailing the course. X still needs to sail to the required side of this mark, to continue to
sail the course. Therefore, they are on different legs of the course....



Red:
At 3 my proper course is to gybe and head back to mark nr 1. Blue failed to stay clear of a leeward boat (RRS 11) and should be penalised. Alternatively at 3, Blue must still round mark 1 before sailing to mark 2 and thus is on the same leg as Red which still has to round mark 1 also. Alternatively at 4, Blue must still pass mark 1 therefore Blue is still on the same leg, and should keep clear of a leeward boat (RRS 11)


Blue:
At 3 Red is not sailing her propercourse to mark 1 and is interfering with Blue on a different leg sailing to mark 2 at the latest when blue has passed mark 1 shortly after 3. Blue stayed clear of red well after exiting the 2 BL zone.

Questions:
a) Is a proper course relative to the present position of a boat? Does a proper course exist at all for red at 3 to 4?
b) can a boat be on 2 legs? By still having to pass mark 1, while on a proper course to mark 2 that requires no course change to pass mark 1?

Team Europe :
There is no guarantee on a jury outcome / umpire call.
Red should have sailed to windward of mark 1.
If this fails for whatever reason red would be tactically more secure by assuming a reaching til closehauled course on sb tack preventing blue from coming a breast (overlapped) with the mark. In appeals and protests the primary argument must be that Blue still had to sail (instead of "allready has sailed") TO ( see CALL E16) mark 1 and RRS 23.2 is not applicable.
A negative umpire call best be discussed over a beer or 2 if we're serious about that argument.
Whith 2 blue boats trapped like that expect the race to be black flagged. Then even if Blue would be penalised at 3 proper course for red is to sail to the mark..

you missed to put the Video in it

So here it is >>> VIDEO <<<

I think that red wasn't on his proper course penalyze red for 23.2..... maybe I think that if red broke intentionally the rule (this can be done by PC after hearing) there is also a rule 2.

For this situation, even more precise to quote the bottom note of E13:
"After the starting signal, a boat that passes the wrong side of a mark is not on the same leg of the course as a boat that is passing the mark on the required side."

admiral 1 wrote:Questions:
a) Is a proper course relative to the present position of a boat? Does a proper course exist at all for red at 3 to 4?
b) can a boat be on 2 legs? By still having to pass mark 1, while on a proper course to mark 2 that requires no course change to pass mark 1?

a) Here your theoretic proper course changes suddenly by 180 degrees. In practice, your proper course is to bear away and sail back to mark 1. So proper course is relative to where you are and where you just were...

b) If you read the bottom note of E13 literally, then yes you can be on 2 legs. If 3 boats are rounding the mark, and the first is on the next leg, and the third is on the previous leg, then the middle boat is on either leg depending on what boat you relate her to:
"When boats are rounding a mark on the same required side, even when one or both of them may be making a very wide rounding, they are sailing on the same leg."

Harald

CALL E13

After the starting signal, a boat that passes the wrong side of a mark is not on the same leg of the course as a boat that is passing the mark on the required side.

ooops i missed that one. ....

ok so we are in the clear that red is interfering at the latest when she "passes the mark" on the wrong side and is not sailing a proper course. Now lets presume Red actually sucessfully luffs to pass to windward of the mark at 3. Has she then at one time passed the mark on the wrong side between 1 and 3? Presumed so, is she on a different lag at 2 and her manouevring between 1 and 3 to be considered interfering as per RRS 23.2 ?

admiral 1 wrote:Now lets presume Red actually sucessfully luffs to pass to windward of the mark at 3. Has she then at one time passed the mark on the wrong side between 1 and 3?

I assume you mean that being in position 3, red has passed on the windward side of the mark? I would say no. For the understanding of "passes the mark on the wrong side" in E13, I would interpret that as being in a position where you are not able to pass on the correct side of the mark if you turned towards to mark.

Harald

I would interpret that as being in a position where you are not able to pass on the correct side

as the devils advocate: a boat has passed on the correct side when she is not able to pass on the wrong side by turning toward the mark.

A boat passes a mark on one side then, when that boat is committed to passing a particular side = no longer able to pass on the other side by turning toward the mark (through the smaller angle < 180°, as opposed to "away from the mark" through the wider angle > 180° ).

From that follows.. between 2 and 3 red passes the mark on the wrong side, and is on a different leg from any blue boat that passes on the correct side. Red is then interfering when not sailing a proper course which is to turn away from the mark (gybe) to come back sailing toward the mark on a close hauled course...
If she does when and where does she loose her right to mark room? (apart from coming head to wind, hence gybing..) Specifically, after the gybe she should be sailing close hauled, a then proper course, from what boats may she still expect mark room?

Red maintains right to mark room whilst she has not passed head to wind or left the zone.

Therefore if Blue is required to give mark room to Red then is Red still be on her proper course?

Therefore if Blue is required to give mark room to Red then is Red still be on her proper course?

"is still be" Ouch... ah those delete insert keys.

That said. If condition A is met AND condition B is met THEN C is applied

A Blue has to give markroom (room for red to sail TO the mark and room for red to sail a proper course AT the mark)
B Red IS sailing TO the mark or sailing a proper course AT the mark.
C Red is exhonerated for breaking Rules 10,11,12 etc (RRS 18.5) (NOTE 14 is off or adapted in most virtual sailing events, but RRS 2 is not, also see about in the top menu..)

SO if red does NOT break a rule she does NOT NEED exhoneration.
SO if red breaks a rule and is NOT SAILING TO the mark and NOT SAILING A PROPER COURSE AT she is NOT exhonerated
SO Blue is breaking R18 when she does not give room to red to sail a proper course AT the mark (here once red is abreast of the mark on the wrong side, room for red to bear down, gybe and luff to pass on the correct side.)

However ON TOP of red having right to mark room, red also is right of way boat (RRS 11) without limited ( RRS 17) luffing rights. Hence the whole case evolves around RRS 23.2 where red is allowed to interfere with Blue only while sailing her proper course. In this case... - bear down, gybe and luff to pass the mark on the correct side.

And all of that only holds true when the wording of call E 13, E 16 are conclusively defining "different leg" such that it is applicable in this case. Normally umpires do not run into this kind of stuff. let alone juries as practised in teamracing here.. so if an umpire has contemplated such case before he/she will be ready to make a call immediately...

As a sailor you are taking quite a chance on en umpire having actually done this, or in case of a jury pray the members have read and studied the same material as you and came to the same conclusion, otherwise you are not doing anyone a favor by taking an unnecessary risk. Where "the same conclusion" IMO still is up in the air.. as it where purposefully and deliberately sailing to pass the wrong side of the mark IS interference by the Oxford English dictionary, that you are allowed to because you can purport to sail a proper course which belies the premise of "finishing as fast a possible" is ultimately devious, hence the call for invoking RRS 2 some posts earlier.. So before this becoming a general accepted tactic.... come up with something better maybe?

Is Rule 2 relevant ?
If red is complying with rules and blue is not then fair sailing for red is to penalise blue for infringement.
Similarly if blue is complying and re not fair sailing is to penalise red.
And if both are infringing, fair to penalise both to give favour to the rest of the fleet.