Rule 3 ... Why ?

[admiral 1]

As long as we agree that it take considerable criminal intent to cheat ... if indeed somebody does successfully fakes his nationality... i guess he /she deserves it...
there are very unintrusive ways of verification that are not open to the police only..... and if ip's are in database or not, doesn't matter, nor is a location proof of nationality.. itst just one of many possible indicators if something is possibly foul..... and it would seam that any attempt to cheate here wil not bear fruit...

[waywordboat]

I have read a lot about this nationality rule. I see a lot of people who dislike this rule because it doesn't make sense to them. I hear VTC Committee defending this rule because their intention was pure, even if people do not agree with the rule.

Now personally, I don't care about this rule much at all--it does not now, nor probably ever, affect me. But I am curious at the two sides for the following reason--I don't understand the need for this rule in anyway.

To summarize what I have seen in the forum:
VTC wanted this rule to prevent skippers creating a super team for the WTRC. The idea of nationality seemed like the best way to achieve this as it is easy to check, and easy to understand.
Many players have objected to this rule because they believe part of VSK is the international aspect--making friends all over the world. And now limiting TR to only local people seemed different from the way the game is played, and basically just upsets people.

What I have not heard, or seen discussed, is the premise: That we needed to do something to prevent super teams. I think this notion is the part of the discussion that should be focused on.

People keep bringing up last years WTRC. As I recall, we saw 2 players who were actively shopping themselves for teams (I am withholding names because it doesn't matter). What does matter is NEITHER player has ever won a TR event that I can recall. If you look at the teams that have won either TL or WTRC events, you will see one thing--these are teams that race a lot, sail together, and have fun. The fact is that I have never seen a super team created, I have never felt like I lost or beat a super team, nor do I even think this is a factor for people deciding.

I mean, the defending champs are basically a super team, just one that adheres to this clause, in that the skippers are their team are all very solid, good skippers. CRT is like a super team for the same reason. It is just as daunting for a new team to know they have to go through Harald's team, or through CRT, as it would be for them to go through a team of random members from different countries.

Now that the WTRC is here, this conversation is irrelevant for this year. But I do encourage more discussion on whether we really need to worry about super teams, and hence need a nationality clause, or if we should just welcome any team that wants to participate in an event.

I mean, in real life the United States has teams sail in an event to qualify for the WTRC. The top 2 teams represent the US. There is no nationality rule in place, no checking where you were born--just an opportunity for any team to qualify and race for this right, according to one of the judges from the event. Seems like we are taking the virtual game to far when we have stricter rules than our counter parts in real life.

Jon

[admiral 1]

in real life the United States has teams sail in an event to qualify for the WTRC. The top 2 teams represent the US. There is no nationality rule in place, no checking where you were born--just an opportunity for any team to qualify and race for this right

I doubt the UK-Team or the AUS- team would be accepted as a team that can particpate for qualfiying in the event... OR that some measure would not be put in place should
members of those teasm join some US team that particpate in that qualification.

[waywordboat]

I just checked the NOR: they specifically say "up to 2 non-US teams may be invited to participate." Which is basically saying that they allow international teams to compete. In addition, the following is part of the disclaimer they use: "AS THE NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY FOR SAILING IN THE UNITED STATES, SELECTORS MAY NOT DISCRIMINATE BASED UPON THE APPLICANT'S RACE, COLOR, RELIGION, AGE, SEX OR NATIONAL ORIGIN."

The key component--can not discriminate for NATIONAL ORIGIN.

Either way, that was a minor point. The major point I was making is that there has been a lot of discussion about the rule--but very little discussion about whether the actual reason for the rule is evident.

Look at the TL and WTRC championship teams: 2007-8: Team USA, a brand new team, won both event. 2009 ES Pirates won TL, as a team I had not seen before. CRT: won some events as a pretty new team. union won last year as an old team with lots of experience.

My point: We have seen new teams, national teams, international teams, etc., win the WTRC and TL events. I am not comparing events other than to say that the idea a super team could be put together right before WTRC, and that super team would be able to dominate, is just silly. TR is not about having the 3 best skippers in a game like VSK, it is about having 3 skippers who work together the best. Because all boats can achieve equal speed in the game--tactics and teamwork are the critical component to determining the winner. And I do not believe a new team that has not practiced, can dominate an event.

When Team USA won--we practiced a ton to get good enough to win. Since then we practice 1 / 20th of the time, and our results show this. CRT practices a ton and they won. ES teams practice a lot, and their results show this. The key ingredient in winning, for most teams, is practice. And personally, I would welcome any team to a regatta like this, as more competition is ALWAYS a good thing...but I like to look top down, not bottom up. And the way to increase competition at the top is not to make lesser teams more welcome, it is to encourage better teams to participate, but that is just my opinion, which means it ain't worth a whole lot.

[admiral 1]

And the way to increase competition at the top is not to make lesser teams more welcome, it is to encourage better teams to participate, but that is just my opinion, which means it ain't worth a whole lot.

1. your opinion is worth as much as everybodies

2. I agree with you

Where we differ is the interpretation of the W in world championships and the T in team racing...

W = competition between nations

T = Teamracing not primarily racing to be in the best team. but primarily working for your team to be the best in racing..

The T provided the ground for making changes to prior regulations, the W provided a natural way

The AC as a competition between nations has seen the NYC for practical reasons allow US-Citizens to crew UK yachts in a time travel was not so easy,
because of practicality it was decided that the AUS challenger could use dutch tow tanks for development, Allinghy could use NZL-crew.
Today you can give any child the D.O.G. to read, tell it who's steering the boat and ask if that's a competition between nations......
You'll find the RC here at large, the NZL population at large, and all those US-Citizens that supported Oracle-BMW whenever a nationality clause came up in agreement with that child.

For flat out gathering and training the best team the Team League is perfect, why repeat that?

As it is skipper interested in team racing train for the Team League from April til January (9 months) and only then start preparing for the WTRC....

"up to 2 non-US teams may be invited to participate."

I'm sure international teams are allowed to compete, all i'm saying is that i do not trust it will remain like that after the first time NO single US-citizen is in a team representing the US. let alone when NZL II, AUS II and or UK II would represent the US.
I also think other National Authorities will not take it friendly when the US National Authority attracts the best talents from these countries leaving those without a chance...

[waywordboat]

Well, I think it needs to be clearly presented as to what the reason for the nationality rule is, since it seems that the reason changes based on comments people make. For a long time the reason was along the lines of this "to prevent people building teams of the best skippers which would discourage new teams from wanting to participate." So I showed why I thought that reasoning had some issues--the main one being that no team built just for the WTRC has ever won it.

So now you present that the "W" in WTRC should represent nations. And that is fine, if that is the approach you want. And you discuss how the AC has issues with nationality now--issues you want to avoid, I guess. And again, I can say that is fine.

But, if you want the W to stand for nations, why are we running this event as a team vs. team event, instead of a nation vs. nation event? It is easy to say this is what we want, but the actions and decisions do not support it. If you wanted the WTRC to be a race among Nations, you would have the qualifiers at the national level, and limit the number of national teams in the event--so, Italy with the large VSK community is allowed 2 teams, and the USA with a smaller community is allowed one team. The nations then have race offs to determine what team they send--and you have a national event. This is how the AC is run, this is how the WTRC (in real life) is run, and this is how the olympics are run. The three biggest "national" driven events ALL follow the same pattern--allow nations to determine their best, and allow the best from each nation to compete.

However, I do not for a second believe that is the intention, as an event like this would completely undo the first reasoning--if you limit the teams from nations like the other events do, you encourage the creation of super teams at the national level.

Instead, the VTC committee has a private discussion and determines that the potential for a super team, or a group on skippers to form a team and dominate the WTRC is so great, that we need to create new rules. However, as has been stated, not one team from Italy was part of this discussion, not one team from the USA was part of this discussion...so, it was a small sample of the active TR'ing people who participated in making a decision that affects the event most poeple looked forward to. And of course this is your right--but it is also the right of others to explain why they disagree. And then next year the VTC committee, whoever they may be (maybe I just didn't look hard enough, but I can't find a list of members), can discuss whether they want this again.

What I hope is that you either get rid of this rule, or you go to a truly national concept like the olympics and real life WTRC do...

Jon

[TiGER]

What I hope is that you either get rid of this rule, or you go to a truly national concept like the olympics and real life WTRC do...Jon

That is exactly what i think of. Since there is already a big teamrace event (TL) with mixed teams i rather would prefer the 2nd solution.

[admiral 1]

Well, I think it needs to be clearly presented as to what the reason for the nationality rule is, since it seems that the reason changes based on comments people make.

The reason was simply that the VTC / WTRC was no longer in accordance with our aims.
So naturaly we go and seek ways to ammend that.

There maybe some misunderstanding here...
The why some limiting criteria? Is to prevent superteams though i consider that only a by product of balancing.
The why national criteria ? Is for the simple reason that it is the easiest maintained. Fits with world championships,
there already is a Team League.

An exemption was created for pre WTRC 2010 teams... and i rather figure that some consider that an undue advantage and believe me my team has been very close to lynching me a couple of times.. on the other hand my team needs more recruits from Germany the UK, from the Netherlands, and yes even from Brasil. Each again increasing their countries pool of skippers or teams to choose from.

As for National selections, it has been every countries opportunity to do so.. That there was not IMHO lies in resistance to adopt to a new situation and obvious lack of interest in the VTC, comparing the publication of the rule and the time of debate. AND us the VTC RC failing to communicate. (We are just a bit flabbergasted as it concerned 3-4 teams at the time of which half of those the RC belonged to.. meaning all other teams could procede as before and countries can choose to either combine forces or send every team they have available.. all the teams it concerned were pointed to the change months ago.

That teams constellations changed in preparation for the Team League, and found their elligibility to sail in the VTC hindered was AFTER the VTC SI were published..
That some want to adapt their teams in preparation of the WTRC and finding their elligibility now hindered naturally leads to protest though not something they could not have known for months.

And in some cases it led to flat out contemplations of bypassing the rules. Some even thought it fit to actually try and cheat. Every time underscoring our aim. Maybe we should take a poll on who actually read the "about"?

Now you all may pitty not being able to sail in the same team as for the Team League.. but do you really want a simple repeat and can't that revenge wait for next year?

[waywordboat]

The reason was simply that the VTC / WTRC was no longer in accordance with our aims.
So naturaly we go and seek ways to ammend that.

There maybe some misunderstanding here...
The why some limiting criteria? Is to prevent superteams though i consider that only a by product of balancing.
The why national criteria ? Is for the simple reason that it is the easiest maintained. Fits with world championships,
there already is a Team League.

Who are you talking about when you say "our aims?" Is it the VTC Race Committee? Is it the ITBYC membership. Is it the Team Racing community? Who? From what I can tell, this is quite simply the aims of the VTC committee. Yet, the VTC committee is a private committee. There is no record of who makes up this committee. So far, Nuuk, Euphoria, and Admiral have made it clear they are members of the VTC committee--how many other members are there? How big is this group--and what are the aims of the VTC community? Is the VTC committee focused on ITBYC or VTC? What is the guiding principals of VTC? There is very little transparancy about VTC committee, the discussions, the goals, and the reason for rule changes. Now, I know all of you well enough to be confident that any decision made was done with the best interest at heart....it is just hard to tell what best interest.

Because, my recollection is that ITBYC was designed to promote team racing, yet this rule does the exact opposite--it limits team racing. So it is very difficult to acknowledge that this rule was put in place to further ITBYC aims, unless the purpose of ITBYC is something different than I think, or the VTC Committee has decided that limiting the ability of teams to participate in VTC and WTRC is good for team racing. I can't recall a situation where preventing participation was seen as a good way to build a business, an event, or to promote popularity--I have seen it done to limit competition, or to create exclusivity.

The National Criteria fits with World Champs--you say. Great--then why doesn't the regatta SI's and NOR fit with world championship events? That is the point--you have a hybrid event now, not a national championship, not a team event--but some other sort of event that does not follow either model. For example, the olympics are not promoting sailing, they are providing an exclusive event for sailors to try to get to race in. The AC is a bit different--the actual race doesn't promote sailing historically--it is a sailing regatta--but it does help sailing in the technology developed for it. But that can only happen because it is exclusive and limited--you couldn't have 100 teams dumping money into billion dollar compaigns, it would be unrealistic.

Finally, there is different information coming from two of the VTC members about why this rule was created. You say:

Is to prevent superteams though i consider that only a by product of balancing.

However, Euphoria told me I was missing the point of the rule when I commented about the nationality portion and said the following to me (edit--basically that prevention of elite teams was the purpose):

Quote removed by me (it came from private forum and should not have been put her by me)

When I go up further in that post, here is the description provided for this rule:

quote removed by me (from private forum, should not be posted here)

So, forgive me if I am confused. On the one hand, you say that the elimination of super teams was a by product of this rule, not the intention. Harald says that the prevention of super teams was the reason for the rule. Since the VTC discussion is private, it is very difficult for outsiders to know what the motivation for the rule truly was.

At the end you ask if I would like WTRC to just repeat the Team League event. The truth--until the majority of ITBYC teams participate in Team League, it is not a repeat, because there are new teams. So I don't mind...that would be like asking if a person should sail in multiple regattas in a one design, since the competitors tend to be the same at each regatta with some local sailors joining at each stop--yet no sailor I know sees this as a negative. It is actually a positive, it creates community, and friendship, or at least that is my experience.

Jon

[NuuK(Soulwave)]

Another question: How would you maintain a Team Ranking (like the VTC Ranking) without fixed teams? When you want to create a good ranking, a stabilization from the teams is needed. A comprehensive ranking doesnt work with teams switching every season.

When you check the teams before and after the rule, there are not that much changes, imho. Teams which found theirselves and become a team (what is more than just put the "wannabe" best skippers, in one team) doesnt got a problem at all. And when I get you right, these kind of teams are successfully and hence worth aspiring to (I guess the national rule will be updated after the wtrc and we try to regard some good points from these discussion).

Holger

[admiral 1]

I see no defiation of the same premise. The premise to have a balanced competition caused a rule change. The new rule worked out is an national criteria because of a pletoria of reasons.
As with every compromise and the people teking part in discussion each may have reached the compromise for different reasons..

It is the best compromise available...weather you were part of discussions or not.

If you were not invited for discussions then you may presume your arguments were already incorporated. (and so far i have heard no new argument)

If i have answered differently then please point out where so i may correct that. If i have answered differently then others from the RC, well suprise.. we have different reasons for reaching that compromise.

Various calls in the time period well before and shortly after introduction for a better proposal lead to no new arguments... and there are still no new arguments..
not even going for 100% natinoal teams is an argument, but you should at least notice that the older international teams morally wise are as good as dead horses anyway, when
their internationals are part of a larger country.

By the best of my intention i will in any official statement sign as RC member. So no matter what you read if not signed by RC its me talking and not the RC. To make it more interesting
at times I may speak on behalf of my team or any other responsibilities i may have. Sorry for that if its confusing..

Teams participating in the Team League do that at free will, teams participating in the WTRC do this at i hope free will too. I fail to see how the absence of a team in one or the other makes a tournament different, other then in time and place.. A World Championship is between nations weather you agree or not, i think more then half the world population will agree.

The question is will you work with us to have this competition of nations or should somebody else take care of a competition between nations...and we make a Team League with some different teams... ? Simply ask the Italians to run the Team League twice... should be no problem. Set up national selections, or national championships go ahead, just do it. For now we have a compromise in place, from registrations i'ld say it worked well, from what i see it might work to get more skipper to do Team Racing and with stuff like RPC and some other things we might see a continued higher interest from more countries, spreading VSK, groing the VSK community and ultimatly show those who decide and or do such things that it might pay to invest in the further development of virtualskipper.

BTW you are missing that clubs build superteams by definition unless you see Barcelona, Manchseter United as something different then a club...there is no controlable limitation on where clubs draw their members from.. unless clubs would decide to have a limited number of internationals??

Basically i fail to understand what there is not to understand... other then some folks want to sail in any team they want, us say sorry here you can not for this and that reason.. either you do ... or you don't but you do not have to....

[admiral 1]

Because, my recollection is that ITBYC was designed to promote team racing, yet this rule does the exact opposite--it limits team racing.

If it does then we'll see it, if it does not then we'll see that too. For now it ulitmatly will limit team racing basically to the top team or if a country is smart the best line up of skippers for each country... this oposed to limiting the WTRC to the top 60 skipper.. so where exactly now is team racing limited? Except for those that do not seam to be able to reperesent a country or work with the community from their country.. i see no limitation, however limiting the WTRC to the top skipper only takes away any incentive to try and participate exept by trying to get in to a top team across borders and across language barriers.

So we'll see what happens the next months and then after evaluation further improvements may come... and i'm sure not everybody is going to like those either..

Cheers.

[waywordboat]

It is the best compromise available...weather you were part of discussions or not.

If you were not invited for discussions then you may presume your arguments were already incorporated. (and so far i have heard no new argument)

I do not have to, nor will I, presume anything about the private discussion you and some other people, who I still do not know, had. I can only know that the opinions of the people who participated in the discussion were considered, and that those people did not include ANY Italians or Americans. But, if you want me to KNOW that my arguments and thoughts were discussed, then you and the VTC committee may make the discussion PUBLIC. Otherwise, this decision will be seen as being made by a private group of people who will not even provide a list of their members.

What did WE compromise? Why is it the BEST compromise? I mean, just because you say it is, it must be so? First--I did not compromise, I was told if I want to participate in the WTRC, here is the new rule. You compromised, the VTC Committee compromised: the rest of the VSK Community was told to either leave the WTRC or to accept YOUR compromise. It is comments like this that really upset those of us not invited to participate in the discussion--you are basically saying, unintentionally I hope, that my opinions and thoughts are not as good or meaningful as yours, or the other members of the VTC Committee. That there is NO WAY an italian, or an American, could have a different opinion than those thought of by your private group. This is the arrogance that has been presented, unintentionally I believe, to the VSK community.

Also, it is not just the importance of an idea being mentioned--but also the passion felt by the presenter of the idea. If I said: "well, I am not sure, but maybe we do not need to worry about elite teams," you could say that the idea was discussed and dismissed. But, if I said: "There is no way that we should even consider this, this is an affront to VSK, this is the worst possible approach we could take, I will absolutely resign from VTC Committee if we decide to create an arbitrary rule because of this," that argument would have a different impact. So, just the fact that it was brought up, does not mean it was discussed the same as if the people who object to this rule were a part of the discussion.

The second part of this: How many people are part of VTC Committee? 10? more? less? 20? more? less? See, I do not know. But I do know that at least 20 Italians have objected to this rule, some AUS guys have objected, and I have objected...so, over 20 people have a DIFFERENT opinion than the VTC Committee...so it is very hard to say that this decision considered MY view, when MY view is that this rule is not needed, and the STATED reason for making this rule, to prevent elite teams, is a bad premise and is bad for team racing. So, it is very hard to believe that this small, private group created the absolute best possible solution, when they excluded over 90% of the TR community from the discussion.

The question is will you work with us to have this competition of nations or should somebody else take care of a competition between nations...and we make a Team League with some different teams... ? Simply ask the Italians to run the Team League twice... should be no problem. Set up national selections, or national championships go ahead, just do it. For now we have a compromise in place, from registrations i'ld say it worked well, from what i see it might work to get more skipper to do Team Racing and with stuff like RPC and some other things we might see a continued higher interest from more countries, spreading VSK, groing the VSK community and ultimatly show those who decide and or do such things that it might pay to invest in the further development of virtualskipper.

I will work with you to create a national event, YES. Or, I will work with you to create the WTRC we have had in previous years, open to all teams--the event you consider a repeat of TL. But, I will continue to dislike and object to this hybrid event which to me discourages and makes it harder for teams to form and be competitive in the VTC and WTRC system. However, I will still participate and encourage other teams to participate in an event I do not feel is perfect, because it is always better than no team racing. But, I will encourage teams to voice their opinions about the rule, and whether they agree or disagree with it.

Let's look at the idea that WTRC would be a repeat of TL for a moment: Union, last years WTRC champ, has NEVER participated in TL. So, we have a difference already. RUSSIA (not this years version--but the previous years team) did not do TL and did WTRC the last few years. Another difference. And, in real life, I race in a one design class. When I go to a regatta at club A, I know the top 5 skippers will most likely be the same guys as at the next regatta, and the same five guys who will win nationals, and the same five guys who will win most events...does this RUIN sailing for me? NO, it creates a goal--to beat those guys. It creates a community--where we get to know teams and people. But in general I will help promote TR'ing and the WTRC, as I have done every year.

Now, let me ask you and the VTC Committee a question:
If the community keeps complaining about this rule, if more than 20 people complain, more than 50, or more than 100, will you consider changing the rule? Will you consider allowing elite teams if over 20 people say they would prefer to have the WTRC as an open event, instead of a national event. Or, will you make it a true national event, not a compromise, if 50 people say that is what they want?

Or, will you and the VTC Committee keep making decisions behind closed doors, away from the public, and stay with those decision even when it is clear that only a small % of the TR community supports the decision you came up with?

This is not a question of intent. Most people have said that they believe the intent was fine, and that the members of VTC are doing this because they believe it was the best choice: Yet, they still think it was a mistake. Aussiemite team has said this in the AUS forum, the Italian teams (I think 9 of them) have signed a petition to this affect, and team USA has said this as well. So, that is at least 11 teams (or 9 teams and 2 members of teams) in the WTRC that have raised questions about this rule.

And the answer to ALL of us has been: "you are wrong, this is the best possible solution, it had to be done, etc..." Look, if one person objected and 99 agree, you win. Even if 20 object, and 80 agree, you win. But so far, I have seen far more people objecting to this rule, than agreeing to it--yet, I have not seen any discussion by VTC Committee members regarding this going forward, and that would be because I do not know who the VTC Committee is, how many members there are. But I have seen at least 3 VTC Committee members say that those of us who disagree, or have another opinion, are wrong. That is the reason this is so difficult--because we are told we are wrong. I will give you 3 example of this right now:

1.

It is the best compromise available...weather you were part of discussions or not.

If you were not invited for discussions then you may presume your arguments were already incorporated. (and so far i have heard no new argument)

Basically--any other opinion would be shown to be wrong if you were a part of our private discussion.

2.

Jon, I suggest that you read this topic, as you obviously have missed the point, ref the post in the VTC race office section of the forum. Further up this topic, I have elaborated on the intention of the rule.

My understanding is wrong because I responded to your argument regarding the nationality, instead of only discussing the elite teams concept other VTC members outlined as the reason. Again--there is one problem and one solution, anything else is wrong.

3.

The statements of some ITBYC members werent that nice abou that. There werent personally insult, but someone should ask themself, if he can still identify with the club and the targets.....

A VTC Committee member saying that if a ITBYC member does not agree with the VTC Committee decision, they should decide if they can still identify with ITBYC club.

As these quotes show--the VTC Committee is not asking for comments, or thoughts, or discussion about their decision. They are asking for people to accept that they know best. And we should all accept it.

Finally, one last quote to show this:

So the big point here is that I believe team racing is much more interesting for the VSK community if the teams feel they are competitive and have a chance of winning something. It is much better that 10 teams has a realistic chance of winning the world team racing championship than only 3 teams fighting for it. That's the beautiful idea. How can you criticise me for thinking like that for the community??? The intention is clear.

Yes--the intention is clear. But the question still remains--did we HAVE TO do anything about the potential for elite teams to form. That is the basis of this discussion--why was a rule needed at all. And the answer is because the VTC Committee decided that elite teams were a danger. But that is the point that I, and I believe many others, disagree with. As I said before--if Union wins the WTRC this year, should we then make a new rule that Nuuk and Euphoria are not allowed on the same team because they are elite and prevent other teams from feeling like they can win the WTRC? Or it is okay because they comply with the nationality rule, designed to prevent elite teams, even though we may still have elite teams.

My main point, my main objection, is that the rule was done in an effort to prevent something that has never happened, and maybe never would. I personally do not think that you can build a 4 person team right before a TR event, show up, dominate, and win...that is just unrealistic to me for team racing in VSK. But, beyond that, WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM? How many teams competed in the last AC (well, 2, bad example)...in the AC before the last one? And how many had a realistic chance of winning? How many teams showed up to the Olympics? And how many had a realistic chance of winning? How many teams are in the England soccer league---and how many have a realistic chance of winning the league? But for VSK we needed to change they typical dynamic in sport, by limiting the ability of friends to create teams together, unless they also happen to live in the same nation, and this concept is 100% in line with the stated goals of ITBYC, and the growth of TR'ing in the VSK community? The RPC event is 100% in line with this stated goal, and so far it looks like it has been extremely successful. The VTC rule is 100% not in line with the ITBYC goals, and has so far seen tremendous push back, because most people see it as reducing teams wanting to TR, not increasing it.

Jon

[admiral 1]

I do not have to, nor will I, presume anything about the private discussion

Ofcourse you cannot verify that your posts, mail, pms etc. are actually read by anyone. But if you do not at least presume they are read by disiscion makers why post at all.
I do take the liberty that you are posting, e-mail and sending PMs becasue you believe you can bring your views across. You do post in public forums because you believe
you can bring your view across to anybody that has enough interest to read through your posts.

I fail to see a difference to be included in maillists, forums, private e-mail exchanges, chats etc. and being part of a non statutory forum that is considered to take a democratic vote.
We are not a statutory organization, there are no regulations in place for decicsion making, as you will like any other gaming community this is enlightened despotism..
So untill statutes are in place democracy is wishfull thinking and all you'll get is proven behaviour and the chance to vote with your feet, now you may feel desiscions and consequent behaviour
are not something you believe you would have voted for. My question in return then would be how would you perceive your vote is weighted? And whom do you represent,
300.000 regitstrated virtualskipper? 2000 active licensed virtualskipper players? 5 developers? The only paying investor? I do not know whom i represent but myself, i only know that i
belong to a group of people that i know are willing to and actually put resources to, and sometimes considerable financial risks to a mean we believe in. For whatever reason
it seams that most of these people have the patience to listen to me, not that they do as they tell them, but because for whatever reason they think it is worthwile to pay attention.

So by all means you may think that if you send a mail, write a post, send a PM, or even place a phone call, or include me in a mailing list your opinion is not considered. All i read is that you
feel the vote should have gone differently and you think you could have had that if you would have had a vote. So this public discourse is nothing but a debate. Your opinion, your vote,
against shown behaviour. I have seen no new arguments. From enhancing player experience in reducing latencies through localising, deviding game irregularities through the teamracing format up to balancing competition in order to spread teamracing , all that beyond and on top of the educational and promotional activities I think ITBYC, VTC, WTRC and their respective behaviour qualify for my support.

If the community keeps complaining about this rule, if more than 20 people complain, more than 50, or more than 100, will you consider changing the rule? Will you consider allowing elite teams if over 20 people say they would prefer to have the WTRC as an open event, instead of a national event. Or, will you make it a true national event, not a compromise, if 50 people say that is what they want?

Or, will you and the VTC Committee keep making decisions behind closed doors, away from the public, and stay with those decision even when it is clear that only a small % of the TR community supports the decision you came up with?

I reckon the community to be about 2000 active players at large.. most think that a very low guestimate.. however I am 100% sure what you consider the community is by the best of all intentions the top
of an iceberg.. 24 team x 10 players makes 240 ..... and THAT is definetely not an economic factor when contemplating the existance let alone further development of virtualskipper or nay other attempt to give us something to play with....

If the WTRC, VTC, ITBYC move in a direction i can support i will support. The "about" is still as true as 10 years ago. IMO WTRC should be for nations, it should help spread teamracing to every corner of the world and every team racing enthusiast should have a chance to compete.. it is growing.. so yes moving from a very open to an ever more limited format is natural unless we can cough up the resources to manage hundreds of participants. Weather countries make their own selection or can send every available team will depend on the number of countries that manage to field a team. Limits on number of teams per country may in the future force selections... I ultimately expect continental / sub continental selections and even multy year repetition.. instead of yearly. Depends largely on continuity and or seasonality in team racing and the number of active team racing sailors that want to do competitive racing.

So will the rule be changed? I do not know... I do think that the plusses i see, compared to the minuses speak for the way we are going, in fact I expect more of the same.. basically I expect
a national criteria to emerge based on location because of not to neglect networking advantage (though actually some rather introduce latencies purposeful or naive in order to extract advantages against opponents) and once accepted i expect geografical regions to ccoperate in their team racoing effords from local regional championships all the way to the top.

Is there a place for super teams putting the best possible team race on show? Ofcourse there is this something itbyc, vtc can or shold work with? sure it is. Should that be called World Championship? IMO no it should not. Would it be smart to do that paralell to a World Championship? No i think not. Does the Team League provide this? Yes i do. Do we need 2 of those? No i think not. Could we have 2 of those yes we could.. so either those that want to have super teams convince decision makers to go back to that format, and i will happily help that come by. Likewise i will then help anybody willing to go the nationaly localised route for a in my eyes world championship.

VTC IMHO is nothing but a seeding tool for the WTRC... there is no activity worth mentioning. Most activity is in Club/Team training sessions and during Team League of wich some races are if convenient scored in the VTC.

My team wil happily race outside the VTC and WTRC in an line up and still try and bing line ups to the water that comply with VTC and WTRC and as an consequence needs to find about 8 rookie vsk players that want to have a taste of teamracing.
I don't like it much, my team doesn't like it.
Does it grow team racing internationally?
In general I believe so, more then "super teams" could ever.

Now how about the B in ITBYC.....

[waywordboat]

You do post in public forums because you believe
you can bring your view across to anybody that has enough interest to read through your posts.

I post here for two reasons.
1. I hope, but have little confidence, that posts like mine will help sway the opinion. Yes. I have little confidence because in my experience, once a group of people have a discussion, and figure out a decision--they are done with the topic. They do not like to keep discussing after the fact. So, by having your discussion and opinion published before the public could discuss this prevents open and honest dialogue in my experience.
2. I post because I want other people to know that not all ITBYC members agree with the VTC decision, that VTC acts seperately from ITBYC membership, and that some people at ITBYC do support and agree with those people who have said they do not like this rule.

I think that by showing the entire club does not support the rule, yet still participates and supports the WTRC and ITBYC, shows that having disagreements within a community is perfectly fine, and in time can allow more people the freedom of feeling like they can participate. I mean, in the private forum discussion I have seen my teammate's membership at ITBYC questioned because he made a comment in VSK Chat during team league to a team affected by this rule...that is the type of behavior that discourages freedom of expression. I believe taking a stand and putting forth a different opinion encourages communication.

I think ITBYC, VTC, WTRC and their respective behaviour qualify for my support.

Wow--so, is the club concept that either you agree with us, or you are not supporting us? Is that they way this club is supposed to work? If so that is pretty sad. I support ITBYC. I support the WTRC. I encourage people to get into TR'ing, to participate, to join teams or form teams...the question is not whether you, or I, or any other member supports and wants to see the club have success. The question is simply: Are we achieving that goal with this rule?

In my experience participating in this game for a while now, NO REGATTA has ever gotten 9 Italian Teams to sign a petition protesting a rule. Not one. But the VTC Committee achieved that this year. And you want me to sit here and defend a rule I disagree with, that has created a petition against it, that has led to more emails, PM's, and discussion than ANY other rule in ANY other regatta. Sorry, I won't do that unless I fully agree with the rule, or I was part of decision making body for that rule. And, I do not agree with the rule, nor am I part of the VTC Committee that made the rule. So, I feel it is my right to argue against it in the hope that the VTC Committee changes this rule.

VTC IMHO is nothing but a seeding tool for the WTRC

That is fine--if VTC is not important, why is the VTC Committee making rule changes? Shouldn't we have a WTRC committee instead...or an ITBYC Committee instead...I mean, this confuses me. Or, maybe, we should try to figure out how to make VTC more meaningful---you know, like, eliminating the nationality rule so ALL Team League races can be recorded and VTC can be more accurate. No rule says VTC and WTRC have to be connected--that is just an arbitrary decision.

Jon