VSK Match Forum

by **euphoria** » 08 Apr 2003 10:29

At least rule 18 got better after patch 1.3, but way to go...

The most annoying thing is that boats entitled to room receives pens from other rules during the rounding (typically rule 11). Duran: Simply turn off the other rules when a boat is entitled to room and is manouvering inside a defined zone around the obstruction...

Rule 18 itself shouldn't be hard to code, as it's only a matter of geometry... Who is overlapping who when a boat is entering the zone!

Harald

by **cubenviper** » 08 Apr 2003 12:55

i get really upset by those guys overlapping to port at the marks with no respect for the rules. as long as the comp may check nothing's done to avoid contact, could the server neutralize this boat or even elapse it(rule 69.1 a)"commiting a gross breach of a rule or of good manners"??? ???

by **CAN Knot** » 25 Apr 2003 05:51

Duran can't just turn off the rest of the rules when a boat has room... because those rules are still in effect! Room is not ROW. However, I agree that VSK could use a bit of tweaking with rule 18.

But I did see a boat get a (well deserved) penalty for violating 18.3( a ) the other night during a public fleet race. I was fetching the top mark on stb and had a port tacker barging in. I could have whacked him and given him a penalty, but I could end up getting one myself and surely losing a lot of speed. So being the nice guy that I am, I headed up to avoid contact (since I had overstood the mark... as usual, there was lots of room for me to head up). However, after tacking the port tacker decided he was going to try luffing me rather than rounding, but as soon the other boat luffed me above ~30 TWA he got a penalty! Even though there was no contact and we still had good separation.

It's just too bad the other boat wasn't on Roger Wilco so he could hear my heckling and jeering

by **euphoria** » 25 Apr 2003 12:14

No, not turn off all rules for everybody only because a boat is entitled to room... What I ment was that a boat that is entitled to room and is manouvering inside a defined zone around mark/obstruction, should be protected against penalties. Ergo other rules should be turned off in the effect of him. Like not getting a rule 11 penalty from an outside boat, even if he (the inside boat) is rounding as close to the mark as possible.

This "zone" should be created at the moment a boat within the 2L-circle is not of position of ROW to another boat. Simple geometry... This is how it works in real life. What is room? It is an area, a zone. "Room: The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way." As long as a boat is manouvering within this space, he should not receive a pen from a boat with ROW.

BTW: In your 18.3 example, did you verify that VSK gave him a penalty for violating 18.3? I haven't seen this penalty in vsk yet.

Harald

by **RNZYS** » 03 Aug 2003 02:37

This issue with the boat entitled to room getting penalties while rounding the mark may not be as easy to resolve as we might think. R11 and R16.1 seem to be the most common penalties given, and while the R11 should be relatively simple to cover, care has to be taken to ensure that the boat entitled to room is not given ALL the rights when altering course to round the mark. For example, a boat that rounds the top mark and immediately gybes within the 2L zone should be governed by rule 16.1 in respect to boats still approaching the mark.

VSK2 still needs to identify other boats/objects as OBSTRUCTIONS when they are so identified by the ISAF rules.
This is a major failing which needs to be addressed.

by **arc** » 30 Jul 2004 03:12

I think it may be worth making sure it is easier to identify your own boats approaching distance to any mark, or have a more correct proportionate scale between boat to two boats length circle on the radar, or at least an indicator that one has made two lengths from mark, so that one can better realise the point at which new rules become applicable. Does anyone else think this or something similar could help?:)

by **arc** » 30 Jul 2004 03:31

A hail, would be simple but effective for all to realise their relationship with others and may assist in rule understanding.

Apologies this comment is not directly relevant to rule 18, but generally relevant.

Edited By arc on 1091151723

by **Oobie** » 30 Jul 2004 04:47

I like that idea arc.

When a boat enters the 2 bl circle, there would be a visual notification and a clear display of who has room to round the mark. I know, the ISAF panel already does this but I have to admit that I don't fully understand everything that's going on in there at mark roundings just by displaying the rules that are in effect and what colour they are. Also, as you are less than 2 bl from a mark, you are pretty busy right about then! Not really much time to look at the ISAF panel, find the boat in question, read the rule numbers displayed, process the situation and take action.

Many times I have been in very marginal overlap situations and really not been 100% sure of my rights. Particularly for beginners, it would be really helpful for them to have a HUD of bouy room situations as they happen.

by **CAN Knot** » 30 Jul 2004 05:11

It does take some practice to be able to judge distance in VSK3, objects may be closer than they appear. However, while it's difficult for us to judge distance, VSK3 does an impecible job. You just need to be watching the right displays.

On the radar try to zoom so the circle is 2-3 lengths from the mark (you do see the circle right?). One interesting note is that in VSK3 rule 18 starts to apply when you stern crosses the circle. However, the circle is just a guideline. To know when VSK really starts applying rule 18 you have to have the ISAF rule window open and keep an eye on it. When you see R18 appear beside the other boat's name you know you are either entitled to room (icon is green), or have to keep clear (icon is red).

by **CAN Knot** » 30 Jul 2004 05:17

Sorry Paul, I started my reply and wandered away (dinner time) so our posts crossed.

If you want a HUD, turn on the boat names! If you have ROW the other boat's name should appear green, if they have ROW their name will be in red. This is also true in the radar view, if you have ROW you'll see green boats in the radar, if the other boat has ROW they'll appear red in the radar view. Of course, in a tight crossing situation that gives you a lot to look at...

by **admiral 1** » 30 Jul 2004 15:19

Like they say, no one said it was going to be easy.....

And then the HUD wil be late, AKA showing
outdated info albeit by milimeters and miliseconds.

But from watching you'll get a good idea from what works and goes and what doesn't.

- haven't got around reading up on the updated, improved ISAF rules 2004-200?? But gather it still is confusing where R18 says "about to pass or round"
in the "when this rule applies" part.

For all practical purpose aslong as you see a red boatname, red radar boat, or ISAF displayed red R18. You have to stay clear, or give room. A Yellow R18 means as much that R18 is applicable, you have to stay clear and or give room, yet you are not infringing aka no action is needed or other rule takes precedent.
A green Isaf displayed R18, says your entitled to room.
R16 / R15 do no apply

VSK 3 finds that R18 is no longer aplicable when your
stern passes the mark, either in rounding or in passing.

If in VSK there is room for someone to poke a bow between mark and your stern after your stern "passed or rounded" you're wide open to R10 and R11, only a bit, if at all protected (far to little in my opinion) by R15 and or R16 the moment R18 disapears from the ISAF screen.

by **arc** » 03 Aug 2004 01:58

Thanks both, I note the radar circle size, but most often one making the circle the correct relationship when approaching the mark when one is really watching relative positions, rights of way, making the mark, and sailing as efficiently as possible, the radar is a little awkward to get right.

Perhaps a button to accurately reset proportional boat and two boat lengths circle is the answer, whist still being able to see other boats nearing the same? Maybe the radar could be increase in size for those critical moments?

I will have to check the rules but shouldn't rule 18 apply when the bow of the lead boat enters the two length circle etc... ???

by **107-1093124107** » 21 Aug 2004 23:40

how do u get 1.3

by **admiral 1** » 22 Aug 2004 08:12

:) that's 0.1.3 or 1.1.3 dated around august 2003

Lastest version on august 22 th of 2004 is 1.2.2
aka 2.2

Edited By admiral 1 on 1093155242

VSK Match Forum

Rule 18

Who is online