More general views on VSK3 priorities - Thoughts on which direction to go

[euphoria]

I'm quoting Nadeo's main focus areas below.

1. Simple and beautiful
More difficult for you to test what is simple or not, but we want to help people have fun with the tactics. And to bring them to discover it, we make it nice . There are certainly more casual gamers who play with it in France than the whole bunch of fan like you, if we can give them fun too, it's a good move. We don't want to do a must have game for everybody, but if they like sailing, watching America's Cup or to play to sim game... it's cool if they like VirtualSkipper.

2. Expert approved
The deepnest of the gameplay exists in reality, we don't want to create something new but to reproduce it. It's the concept, it's the game. Moreover, immersion is helpful to spend good times, and real stuff is better than fantasy to do that. If we don't do that, we are not doing VirtualSkipper but VirtualVirtual. So it would be difficult to do vsk without a community. Seems that the ITBYC will be the though part!

3. A community place
The greatest way to play VirtualSkipper is surely online. I don't know if we can say "play" since what we see what you do around this. So all the stuff we can do to make it better, it's cool.

I'm very much behind all this. Keep it simple to not make too many skippers give up on the game because they are way behind the race winners. This will mainly be achieved by reducing the number of difficulty levels to 2 only: "Casual" and "Expert". "Expert" mode is just like today, where you can choose whether to sail on automatic and manual trim. "Casual" mode should be forced on automatic trim, without the option to trim manually. Make it beuatiful - just to sell more games. Still it must be expert approved, but that should not be in expence of the simplicity. The game can be more advanced, just not on the user interface. The game engine should be a couple of levels higher than in VSK2, with much better rules implementation, boat behaviour in the different environmental conditions and more realistic randomness to the wind. A more community friendly UI would be great. Not just the list of online skippers in the lobby...

VSK is first of all a regatta sailing simulator. The closer to the real thing it gets, the better success will the game be. But it's important to be realistic... My experience is that attempts on simulating aspects of regatta sailing which are hard to transfer to PC sailing, is better to leave out completely. No simulation is better than a bad simulation! Detailed sail trim is an example in this category. Sail trim is very important in real sailing, with all the possbile adjustments (cunningham, outhaul, back stay etc....). To get this right on a real boat, you have to see the entire sail. I think VSK2 reached the limit on this with the sail sheeting. That's the most important trim, and you get immediate feedback from boat speed and boat heel. But introducing more trim would take the focus away from the tactics, and leave no time for chatting during the races. So let VSK mainly simulate the helmsman's and tactician's jobs!

So what is possible to simulate well?
REST : Rules, Environment, Strategy and Tactics!

Of the first 10 rules, rules 10-14 should be possible to possible to represent 100% correct. Rules 15-19 are a little more complex, but still it should be possible to adopt them to something very close to the real thing.

A more or less fixed current pattern is ok, but the wind should be more random. In VSK 2 the wind shifts are happening at the same places every race. Some stable local effects are ok, but my opinion is that a greater share should be inpredictable. As an example, the wind should shift right without changing back, or it should continue shifting right for the entire race as the general trend, with also some small variances. Maybe connect this to cloudier conditions, while sunny weather should give more stable wind?
I think the waves of VSK2 are very good, and how the boats behaves with them. But one thing which must be improved is the directions. Focus on one main direction similar to where the wind is blowing from. At least remove the swells coming from behind and moving slighty faster than boat upwind.

Tactics will be a main factor to do well whatever quality the rest of the simulation. But to benefit a realistic winning tactic, the rules must be represented well and the bad air must be improved from VSK2. Covered wind must be gradually introduced, not just on and off, as Anders has pointed out. Also the mirror wind and turbulences must be represented. If you tack just to leeward of another boat as a tactical move, you should be benefited. The boat just to windward would back off in just like in real life and be forced to tack.

A good strategy simulation is just a sum of the above key factors being represented well.

Harald :beer:

[murphs]

i fully agree with all euphoria has said, especially with the waves....i hate those upwind waves

[admiral 1]

Simple, and beautiful good place to remind of
the training in vsk1. My eldest (7yrs) and his friends got of in vsk1 without further instuctions. At that time neither of them could read............

Going through the tournament in vsk2 is far to difficult, for folks unfamiliar with the concept of sailing, or lack of experience in real sailing.

Presuming interest in the Americas Cup, and the VOR, willing to spend 50 € (equivelant of visiting 10 feature movies in a theater near you ) there must be at least 20 hrs of having fun.

There must be goals to achieve, tournaments etc. it must become real easy for anyone to organise a tournament, series etc. Starting with the score file in vsk2,
is is relativly easy to combine results of multiple races in the host's score file, wich can be read by the game and transmitted to participants in the tournament, series.
(Kind of TC with basic single brain cell memorising races)


Also some kind of equipment trade off would be an idea. To give beginners (that just spend 50 €) the perception of a chance against pro's. My kids ask me how to get a fatster boat.. cant you buy it? I liked the VVOR concept where basic components could be traded in against better hight tech components at the same time increasing risk of breakage. I'm thinking along the lines of
basically having polyester/nylon sails that take alot of abuse, trading them in against carbon/mylar composites, that bring speed advantages but also need to be taken care of, like only 10 tacks till breakage. Counter that with bringing spare parts (weight penalty) or leaf them at shore.... IMO when kept a bit reaylistic that would bring a chance factor, and make for some surpising tactical strategic options.
Could imagine gybing on the upwind leg, to save the carbon genoa

Next would be the possibility of bringing a meteorologist, trade of against a trimmer (speed loss?) that tells the helmsman, where the wind will be next. This meteorologist could be perfect as the wind could already be known to the AI.

The mrs. Mirjam here thinks in line of the kids, how about an AC campaign, need alot of money, need to hire expensive crew, buy expensive equipment so have to make money by winning races first, spend it on equipment, crew, technology etc.

It never ever should have any bugs, rather wait for next christmas season..

[Peelman]

I believe much like Harald stated that VSK is a "good strategy simulator" in the areas of tactics & basic helm/sail trim.

IMO what the game should improve on is the tactical side by improving the rules & some of the sim functions that aren't realistic as Harald mentioned. More importantly should be the tactical choices being made by sailing in different locations & weather conditions. Give anyone a different venue in a simulator & they will have to learn to adapt to the changes or under perform.

For me, the venue mods of VSK 2 were one of the more welcomed changes to happen to the sim & worth waiting for in VSK 3 if the venue are universal for all users & have a editor aspect for varied conditions.



Edited By Peelman on 1064032412

[Nadeo]

I'm quoting Nadeo's main focus areas below.

1. Simple and beautiful
More difficult for you to test what is simple or not, but we want to help people have fun with the tactics. And to bring them to discover it, we make it nice . There are certainly more casual gamers who play with it in France than the whole bunch of fan like you, if we can give them fun too, it's a good move. We don't want to do a must have game for everybody, but if they like sailing, watching America's Cup or to play to sim game... it's cool if they like VirtualSkipper.

2. Expert approved
The deepnest of the gameplay exists in reality, we don't want to create something new but to reproduce it. It's the concept, it's the game. Moreover, immersion is helpful to spend good times, and real stuff is better than fantasy to do that. If we don't do that, we are not doing VirtualSkipper but VirtualVirtual. So it would be difficult to do vsk without a community. Seems that the ITBYC will be the though part!

3. A community place
The greatest way to play VirtualSkipper is surely online. I don't know if we can say "play" since what we see what you do around this. So all the stuff we can do to make it better, it's cool.

I'm very much behind all this. Keep it simple to not make too many skippers give up on the game because they are way behind the race winners. This will mainly be achieved by reducing the number of difficulty levels to 2 only: "Casual" and "Expert". "Expert" mode is just like today, where you can choose whether to sail on automatic and manual trim. "Casual" mode should be forced on automatic trim, without the option to trim manually. Make it beuatiful - just to sell more games. Still it must be expert approved, but that should not be in expence of the simplicity. The game can be more advanced, just not on the user interface. The game engine should be a couple of levels higher than in VSK2, with much better rules implementation, boat behaviour in the different environmental conditions and more realistic randomness to the wind. A more community friendly UI would be great. Not just the list of online skippers in the lobby...

VSK is first of all a regatta sailing simulator. The closer to the real thing it gets, the better success will the game be. But it's important to be realistic... My experience is that attempts on simulating aspects of regatta sailing which are hard to transfer to PC sailing, is better to leave out completely. No simulation is better than a bad simulation! Detailed sail trim is an example in this category. Sail trim is very important in real sailing, with all the possbile adjustments (cunningham, outhaul, back stay etc....). To get this right on a real boat, you have to see the entire sail. I think VSK2 reached the limit on this with the sail sheeting. That's the most important trim, and you get immediate feedback from boat speed and boat heel. But introducing more trim would take the focus away from the tactics, and leave no time for chatting during the races. So let VSK mainly simulate the helmsman's and tactician's jobs!

So what is possible to simulate well?
REST : Rules, Environment, Strategy and Tactics!

Of the first 10 rules, rules 10-14 should be possible to possible to represent 100% correct. Rules 15-19 are a little more complex, but still it should be possible to adopt them to something very close to the real thing.

A more or less fixed current pattern is ok, but the wind should be more random. In VSK 2 the wind shifts are happening at the same places every race. Some stable local effects are ok, but my opinion is that a greater share should be inpredictable. As an example, the wind should shift right without changing back, or it should continue shifting right for the entire race as the general trend, with also some small variances. Maybe connect this to cloudier conditions, while sunny weather should give more stable wind?
I think the waves of VSK2 are very good, and how the boats behaves with them. But one thing which must be improved is the directions. Focus on one main direction similar to where the wind is blowing from. At least remove the swells coming from behind and moving slighty faster than boat upwind.

Tactics will be a main factor to do well whatever quality the rest of the simulation. But to benefit a realistic winning tactic, the rules must be represented well and the bad air must be improved from VSK2. Covered wind must be gradually introduced, not just on and off, as Anders has pointed out. Also the mirror wind and turbulences must be represented. If you tack just to leeward of another boat as a tactical move, you should be benefited. The boat just to windward would back off in just like in real life and be forced to tack.

A good strategy simulation is just a sum of the above key factors being represented well.

Harald :beer:

We are VERY much behind all this!

It's more about a realistic game than a tool to simulate. Both are interesting but different.

Florent