Rule 3 ... Why ?

[admiral 1]

I think ITBYC, VTC, WTRC and their respective behaviour qualify for my support.

Wow--so, is the club concept that either you agree with us, or you are not supporting us? Is that they way this club is supposed to work? If so that is pretty sad. I support ITBYC. I support the WTRC.

I do suppose you qualify a concept on its merits, for which it stands and for what it does. So yes wow we seem to agree there.

And you want me to sit here and defend a rule I disagree with, that has created a petition against it, that has led to more emails, PM's, and discussion than ANY other rule in ANY other regatta. Sorry, I won't do that unless I fully agree with the rule, or I was part of decision making body for that rule.

You are quite mistaken and i'm sorry when that did not come across. I do not want you to sit and defend a rule you disagree with.
Far from it, all i'm saying is that your arguments, that of the Italian teams you mention that of anybody else having a problem with the rule, is heard. In fact in this whole thread every single post breaths that.

In fact i don't believe we achieve "the" perceived goal with something like WTRC or VTC at all. I believe they work quite contrary to this goal.. as a matter of fact somewhere over the last 10 years the B in ITBYC may have got lost. IMO Luck has it that Italian, German, Australian, Danish, Norwegian to name a view vsk communities have seen great influx of players that are enthusiastic for team racing. Weather this has some foundation in what happened here is hard to define. From getting developers to include a teamracing mode til getting some kind of highly regarded tournament set up one may believe this is so. On the other hand there are vsk communities that have seen no increase in teamracing at all, and some have seen steep declines. I can't say weather petitions,
your arguments will influence decision making.

I only know that this national criteria definitely does 2 things.
First it lowers the hurdle for countries communities that have seen no or little teamracing activity. Ok there is an argument that the higher the level of racing the better its image. I'ld counter with the higher the level the more intimidating it becomes..

Secondly and this is something you'll have a hard time to counter, it forces teams to a localised line up (yes i know citisenship is not by residence.. [may i add till now]) and thus greatly reduces latencies if only between teammembers.
As long as it takes a protest and a full protest hearing or discussion, I consider any team introducing unneeded latencies to be putting a burden on their opponents.

Now it breaks up our team, it hardly broke any other team.. Presuming this national criteria continues to its logical conclusion, i would expect strict nationality by residence sooner then later. For the mentioned reasons i'm willing to put water in my wine, you or nobody else needs to.

Now i don't think that the arguments will change, the WTRC is well on its way.. and coming April i'm sure there will be time to evaluate and see where things go from there, and if and what consequences will follow. Till then please keep your input coming,
i'm sure its considered and well thought of weather pro or contra.

[waywordboat]

You are quite mistaken and i'm sorry when that did not come across. I do not want you to sit and defend a rule you disagree with.
Far from it, all i'm saying is that your arguments, that of the Italian teams you mention that of anybody else having a problem with the rule, is heard. In fact in this whole thread every single post breaths that.

I am thrilled that I am mistaken. Glad we have that cleared up, because I was not sure.

The second part is this--right now, speaking for myself only, being heard is only part of the issue. What I am looking for, and what I feel the VTC Committee has not provided, is a clear place where the reason for this rule is discussed. Not a place where the reason is stated--but a place where the reason is discussed. See, the problem is that the VTC Committee probably spent 6 months or more talking about this privately--the whole VTC Committee is probably thoroughly tired of this discussion...but for the rest of us, this is the first an only time we have had the discussion with the decision makers...and as i show in the other forum, the discussion has been less a discussion, and more a take it or leave it attitude, at least that is what it feels like.

I only know that this national criteria definitely does 2 things.
First it lowers the hurdle for countries communities that have seen no or little teamracing activity. Ok there is an argument that the higher the level of racing the better its image. I'ld counter with the higher the level the more intimidating it becomes..

Secondly and this is something you'll have a hard time to counter, it forces teams to a localised line up (yes i know citisenship is not by residence.. [may i add till now]) and thus greatly reduces latencies if only between teammembers.
As long as it takes a protest and a full protest hearing or discussion, I consider any team introducing unneeded latencies to be putting a burden on their opponents.

1. It lowers the hurdle for country communities--not really, the hurdle is the same, they need to get together and race. Nationality or no nationality clause, the hurdle is the same. But that is looking at the nationality level....for the individual, it creates another restriction if they want to participate in the WTRC and VTC, hence, for the individual is makes it harder to start or join a team that you want to compete in ALL the VSK TR events.
2. It may do that--but, this is a risk that you have to take. I mean, I have had latency issues with my own teammates and not with guys across the world, and I have had issues with guys across the world, and not with teammates, I have had both, and neither. So, percentage wise you are probably right, but from my experience, this is not the reason to make a rule like this.

Jon

[admiral 1]

See, the problem is that the VTC Committee probably spent 6 months or more talking about this privately--the whole VTC Committee is probably thoroughly tired of this discussion...but for the rest of us, this is the first an only time we have had the discussion with the decision makers...and as i show in the other forum, the discussion has been less a discussion, and more a take it or leave it attitude, at least that is what it feels like.

Well i suppose that is by design... the take it or leave it as a matter of fact is as true for WTRC / VTC / ITBYC as for any other community...in fact without statutes you have agreed to when becoming a member, you do not know how and if you have any influence on anything at all.... there are no rules. Only the unwritten ones, basically what you see added to what you experience..

ITBYC / VTC / WTRC follow an unformulated premise an idea.. as usual the originator controls and maintains the idea, you as a community member join because you like most of that idea like other members do too.
So as a member you and i can reconsider if this idea is still worthy of our support. Now exploration of possibilties in the regulation of the idea, the discussion on related subjects etc., any topic on the table bears the danger of nudging, pushing the original idea in an for the originator unwanted direction...that is what basically happened...so the whole idea is brought back on course to some somewhat surprising..

Now for all on lookers nearby or far away the first question might be. What was the idea again? Then you can go and back and say ok i like that i'm with it, this is how i think we can do it. The folks that actually make the idea can listen to you , could implement your input or decide against your input. But do not expect that any argument that is believed to go against the idea will score any points, no matter how heavy the artillery used.

As i see it, that is, what is and has been happening here. And i trust it to remain like that. This trust i cannot write big enough as it is based on more ten 10 years of experiencing that original idea and its implementation. I have no right to decide anything here, i have been giving freedom to do some things here others may not. And sometimes i think i am listened too at and sometimes i see my suggestions implemented. By no means do I agree 100% with every thing that happens here. I'm already happy when its more then 66% So looking at the WTRC the VTC and ITBYC as it is.. in my view they are closer to that Idea then lets say last year around this time. There is no need for wide discussion in some forum other then the www, e-mail, pm and yes even petitions have all arrived. After that you are right it actually is take it or leave it... Just like for the Team League *, and any other community that has no statutes saying otherwise.

For some it can be exhausting and i'm sure for some it even becomes frustrating, and yes i think that some things could have been done better, but that original idea is still here like more then 10 years ago.. there is no sensible reason to believe that idea is gone, or has been waisted, or you can't be a part of it. It'l move in one direction or the other. We can all cycle through our motivations again and present and or listen to each others suggestions again. Some will be asked to become part of the idea, some will be asked to take responsibility for parts of the idea, others will be asked to implement the idea. These walls, the private discussions only a view get to see, are in place to protect the people inside from the outside, as not everybody likes the idea or can and will take responsibilities or implement parts, but above all it protects people from the exhaustion when hundreds come because they have an interest in the idea and want to see their input implemented. At no time input is discarded just like that, in fact any input believed to support and strengthen the idea is implemented to the best of the abilities of those with responsibilities.

For now this national criteria is part of the Idea, like it or not

Now lets all hold hands and sing kum-ba-ya, and see how the Idea is doing in a couple of months and have a look at in what direction it is moving then. Suggestions will always be welcome at any time.


* My italian is not good enough to decifer if vsk-itaila is actually reforming itself to become a full member of the italian national authority and through that a full ISAF member. As such it AFAIK have to be a statutory organization and thus would have some written down decision making process that members assign to when becoming member, and maybe a full membership assembly has a statutory right to change the decision making process. I recommend and deeply respect the individuals in the italian community for going that direction.

[admiral 1]

2. It may do that--but, this is a risk that you have to take. I mean, I have had latency issues with my own teammates and not with guys across the world, and I have had issues with guys across the world, and not with teammates, I have had both, and neither. So, percentage wise you are probably right, but from my experience, this is not the reason to make a rule like this.

This is just phisics at work, the further the distance the higehr latencies, ultimately limited by the speed of light. Latencies caused by other factors just add up to this. If you have more problems with nearby skippers then far away skippers, then you can blame that on the network infrastructure. I'm talking about pure and simple phisical property of online gaming that is undeniable. Whether you like it or not. This apart from the usage of latencies to further ones cause of wining a race. (i think some would call that cheating...)

[Parklane]

* My italian is not good enough to decifer if vsk-itaila is actually reforming itself to become a full member of the italian national authority and through that a full ISAF member. As such it AFAIK have to be a statutory organization and thus would have some written down decision making process that members assign to when becoming member, and maybe a full membership assembly has a statutory right to change the decision making process. I recommend and deeply respect the individuals in the italian community for going that direction.

Just a clarification about the nature and the roles of AIVV and Vskitalia.

AIVV (Associazione Italiana Vela Virtuale, Virtual Sailing Italian Association) is an Association, recognized and affiliated to FIV (Federazione Italiana Vela, Italian Sailing Federation) and consequently, to CONI (Comitato Olimpico Nazionale Italiano, Italian National Olympic Committe); the activity is now at its beginning and AIVV will become the Italian Authority to deal with sailing and regatta simulation, on behalf of the Italian Sailing Federation.
AIVV has no interest to participate in this discussion, since its only authority involves the movement of the Italian virtual sailing and moreover as it could only maintain relations with same-level associations and federations; as we know ITBYC and VTC are on the other hand private authorities.

Vskitalia.com is the first and most representative service portal whose main topic is sailing in its whole; Virtual-Winds could be a similar French example. Inside Vskitalia many Italian clubs are represented and they work together to create and manage multiple international virtual sailing events. Vskitalia has not its own racing team, therefore it is not strictly concerned with this discussion; anyway, as an international tournament of Team Racing as Team League is powered, it is hoped that an agreement may be found to achieve a common and shared set of rules.

The post viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2241 is the product of a discussion between the managers of the greatest part of italian virtual clubs, who decided to express their thoughts on some controversial rules, always respecting the choices of people working to organize and manage WTRC and VTC.



Carlo (Parklane)
A.I.V.V. Vice-President

[admiral 1]

AIVV has no interest to participate in this discussion, since its only authority involves the movement of the Italian virtual sailing and moreover as it could only maintain relations with same-level associations and federations; as we know ITBYC and VTC are on the other hand private authorities.

Fair enough just wasn't sure if there is any vsk community that actually is a legal entity such as a registered association, and i knew AIVV is moving toward such status so i wanted to point at that maybe not all vsk communities are private organizations.