Rule 3 ... Why ?

[euphoria]

Question: if a team is new (formed say in 2010), but the "international" member has been a member of a club in the team's country "at least since 2009", does this satisfy the criteria of 1.3.3 first bullet?

No, the connectivity needs to be directly to a team existing in 2009.

Question: Is permanent residency status recognised when determining eligibility under 1.3.2?

If the country in question accept that as national citizenship, then yes. But I suppose not...

Harald

[broomedreaming]

Hi Harald and other RC members,

How is RC going to "police" it? I can think of 2 ways around this rule. This indicates that there are at least dozen ways:)

If it can not be followed up and police, then it is my belief that Rule 3 be dropped.

Cheers
Gary

[euphoria]

If you by saying "around this rule" have pure cheating in mind, then I can only say that I feel very sorry for people who would cheat for a competition where there are no prizes and no money involved. Sailing used to be a gentleman's sport, and we fight for just pride and honour.

In sports you may take drugs to improve your winning chances. There is always a new drug that cannot be traced. This fact doesn't mean that drugs will be legalized.

Harald

[admiral 1]

How is RC going to "police" it? I can think of 2 ways around this rule. This indicates that there are at least dozen ways:)

Unless a team has a binding explicit ruling that the RC allowed the team to have on non national (an international) boat racing for that team,
that team runs a great risk of not being able to proof that she was elligible to race.

This can go as far as having to produce certified documentation of ones citizenship... possibly by post ident to a jury that will come to a ruling decided on the presented facts.

I advise every team to which it may apply to carefully consider consequences of such a protest.

Striking Rule 1.3 does not mitigate the underlying issue, the reasoning behind $1.3.
I'm sure the RC will carefully consider any proposed alternative measure that mitigates the underlying issue.

If you indeed find there are ways around this rule, I would advise your team to direct you to publicise these ways. So your opponents maybe will not automatically file a protest testing your elligibilty to race in every race you sail. I can guarantee you that international orientated teams that have to go through restructuring because of the necessity to introduce a regulation lik §1.3 wil carefully consider weather each and any opponent they meet complies with §1.3.

The only way around that we know of is when teams willingly except another teams ineligibillty to race and not file a protest. Since you ususally cannot choose an opponent and the earlier paragraph still holds true.. now both teams risk penalising based on RRS 2 and or basic principle.

[broomedreaming]

Harald, the few ways that I had in mind were not being deceptive. It was based on gaining duel citizenship. Have you heard about the Principality of Hutt River? I wouldn't consider this cheating, maybe just flexing them rules.

There are lots of really good reasons why sailing with people who are mates, that come from different countries from around the world should be allowed. Number one is that sailing with your mates is really good fun. Organising suitable times for both teams is a lot easier if you have members who are in different time zones. I would also like to think that it promotes world peace. That has to be a good thing, right?

So far I have only come across one negative reason of having an "open" non restrictive team membership requirement, that being stacking a team full of ace sailors. That to me. would be a challenge that I would look forward to, not one that I would want the rules changed to outlaw it.

BTW, if we ever sail against you Harald, and you want to do drugs while team racing, that is okay by me:)

[admiral 1]

It was based on gaining duel citizenship.

Gaining duel citizen ship for the single reason to increase the chance of winning an online competition that has less then 1000 participants, then still to have actually enter the competition and actually beat every team on the way either examples a very extreme example of what we try to counter OR is a very extreme example of loyalty to one's team to be able to participate with your friends. The latter is something we woule aplaud (hence the "international" status for long standing team members) the earlier is just what we want increasing the hurdle for anybody trying to game our ideal for the simple cause of their ego...

[Bronco]

This can go as far as having to produce certified documentation of ones citizenship... possibly by post ident to a jury that will come to a ruling decided on the presented facts.

Am I in a nightmare ?
Sorry chap, but thinking of asking to produce such documents is a nonsense ...

• First, as far as i remember we never met, so I've got no idea whether I can trust you ... or not
• Give me a scan of an identity card, a passport, a photo and a name, I'll will give you back the passport with the right picture and the right name ...it's really easy with the good software

So as I said on another thread this rule can't be verified, and, furthermore I won't produce official document to non official people. For me official people means police and customs ... and may be army for bad reasons

Sailing used to be a gentleman's sport, and we fight for just pride and honour.

As this is a game, may I suggest to add fun in the list ?

[euphoria]

Sailing used to be a gentleman's sport, and we fight for just pride and honour.

As this is a game, may I suggest to add fun in the list ?

Hehe, yes. Maybe I should not take for granted that everybody involved in this do it because it's fun .

Harald

[admiral 1]

Am I in a nightmare ?
Sorry chap, but thinking of asking to produce such documents is a nonsense ...

* First, as far as i remember we never met, so I've got no idea whether I can trust you ... or not
* Give me a scan of an identity card, a passport, a photo and a name, I'll will give you back the passport with the right picture and the right name ...it's really easy with the good software

So as I said on another thread this rule can't be verified, and, furthermore I won't produce official document to non official people. For me official people means police and customs ... and may be army for bad reasons

Lets presume you are suspected of faking your nationality.... and a protest is filed.

- first there will have to be some fact that supports the protest aka convincing proof some skipper is faking his nationality... like using this: Where are you?
- now a naive skipper who wants to fake his nationality would probably try and use a proxy.... so a protester would have very likely checked here too: Am I using a proxy? Anonymous? (substitute)
-Then there still is the posibility of using a mobile carrier and wifi.... (note this skipper then is not only naiv but taking latencies in account and considerable cost... using a national carrier where he presumably is outside the country..

Point is every node in a network is bound to a peace of hardware which resides on a location that can be determined for every second that node is part of the network. The how and why is irrelevant.

So lets presume now that the facts are piling up against the skipper presumably faking his nationality. That skippers best defence is to acquire a post -ident. (Go to a post office which will confirm your identity in writing..which you can forward by electronic means.) or present documents or any other proof to a witness that can convince the jury. This can go as far as cabling a money transfer lets say through Western Union (preferably by the protesting party ) where you need some form of ID to pick up the money, at a certain post office...the recipient should be able say how large the sum transfered was....

Is this fun? No it is not... but if it needs some sabre rattling to keep everybody on the right side of the line...or to counter the FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) posted by some.. then there you are.

[broomedreaming]

To me, it sounds like you are trying to get evidence of where they live, and not their nationality/citizenship. Not sure if Australia is unique in its multi-culturalism, but there are more Greeks living in Melbourne, than there are in Greece. About half of all kiwis live in Australia. About 5% of all Australians defer going to university, so that they can take a year off on a working holiday, in countries where such protocols allow.

To me, It seems that it would be very hard to prove one's citizenship.

[euphoria]

You are definitively right. But I quote myself from a post above:

[...]I feel very sorry for people who would cheat for a competition where there are no prizes and no money involved.[...]

If you have a cheaters mentality, you probably would try to use software that makes your boat go faster as well.

Harald

[admiral 1]

To me, It seems that it would be very hard to prove one's citizenship.

Sure i could ask a couple of trusted skipper (possibly even VTC RC members) to swear i'm a German National.
However if my relatives find out there are going to be quite some very akward moments... on the other hand there may be some
skipper that as soon as i get a dutch team together may doubt i'm a dutchman. As they'll find me located in Germany all the time.

In this knowledge I could put up some arguments that could counter such believe to the satisfaction of a jury. Like checking the frequency of my last name in the Netherlands vs Germany. The likability of a Dutchman adpoting German nationality etc.

Likewise a Greek living in Australia with a dual citizenship would maybe have left traces in Facebook, Likedin, Youtube, an Account in VSK etc. prior to joining a team that would provide arguments for or against whatever citizenship. Should he for the single reason of joining a Greek team claim Greek citizenship (check Greek law on how and when Greek citizenship is disavowed ) this would probably be cause for doubt when an inquiry is started.

IMHO it is false to proclaim it would be easy, in fact I think considering the cost...one really should feel sorry if one fakes a citizenship for the single reason of what?

Even teams that for the reason of being together since 2009 pay a price, even when exempted up to a level it is clear that they are less burdened then teams that go together on the first of january 2010. None the less that provision was provided and its up to each individual team to decide weather they can live with even if only a suspected advantage.... FWIW I think anybody that claims Team Europe is given an unfair advantage (Protest on RRS 2, basic principle etc.) probably will be laughed out of the jury room.

The pro and cons are very clear Team Europe is on an intensified recruiting spree since august 2010.. for what ever reason we are lucky to be able to compete at all... at the moment totally dependant on 2 skipper... whether we are able to improve or even as originally planned to split in seperate national devisions (national teams) before the start of the WTRC is going to be a close call.
Just to be clear the WTRC will not see the best possible team win, it will see the best possible national team win..

We (Team Europe) thus salute Team Denmark which seams on the best way to enlist the best talent Denmark can put forward.
Skipper in other countries might like to know that at a time i counted more then 15 skippers in a Danish Team then called Danish Dynamite....

[Bronco]

first there will have to be some fact that supports the protest aka convincing proof some skipper is faking his nationality... like using this: Where are you?
- now a naive skipper who wants to fake his nationality would probably try and use a proxy.... so a protester would have very likely checked here too: Am I using a proxy? Anonymous? (substitute).

Well, just for fun, using this rule I would have been american for more than four years ... The time taken by Internet authorities to move the IP range of my ISP (Free, n°2 for France) from the states to france ...

[admiral 1]

Using this stool, you registered in march 2010 from Paris Ill de France, for the VTC in march 2010 from the domainth identified as proxad.net. located in Paris France.. you proclaim to be a Tunesien citizen, you proclaim to be located in France

Om may 4th 2009 someone joined the Nadeo forum as bronco.fr located in france..
I suggest you sail for a French or Tunesien team...... or expect some inquiry as to how you became a Tunesien citizen.....................

As Tunesia is in my book a country that could see its citizens considered international, yould be free to choose which country to sail for.... had you claimed to be a Frenchman in the years before that would have been cause for inquiries to determine that status. Any deviation of you sailing for a French or Tunesien team, could make every opponent search the www for traces.

Just for fun, what do/did you do to make yourself believe you could successfully convince everyone that you're from the US?

If you indeed are a US citizen that has proclaimed to live in Paris France, for what did you say? 4 years... then why would you claim that you're Tunesian to acquire "international" status? Oh and BTW did you pledge allegiance to any other country then Tunesia eg. the US flag, French foreign Legion ? (don't know what the law in Tunesia is atm but i figure stuff like that still costs you your tunesian citizenship.)

Now before I proof with your help that you are actually state-less...

I don't want to help any of your teams opponents setting up protesting you on the national criteria. I think this was funny enough?

(To any confused reader: Bronco IS proclaiming to be the Tunesian Captain of an otherwise all French Team, located in Paris, France and likes Belgian beer best. Good luck on proofing that he does not qualify for "international" status, and or proofing his team is NOT eligible to race, with him and 2 Frenchman on the water. )

[Bronco]

Just for fun, what do/did you do to make yourself believe you could successfully convince everyone that you're from the US?

May be I haven't been clear, what I was saying is that before 2009 my line was considered as a US one ... just because a table somewhere in a computer hasn't been updated. Today it's ok, the IP of my ISP are considered as French so it's good for me. But such things can happen again for others.

Another thing is that u're moving from nationality to the country where people are living ... which is not the same, even if a majority of people living in a country are supposed to be born locally lol

And, last but not least, believe me or not, but if a guy with good network knowledge wants you to believe something, you will believe it. There is a level of fake where people can go to abuse you, but only police can go on the way back. Anyway, if you've got time to waste to prove that I'm an Egyptian living in France, feel free to do it. My pleasure
But be fast, I'm planning to ask for Turkish nationality soon