Rule 3 ... Why ?

[ALB]

Hi all,

We were invited to join the ITBYC and were pleased to be accepted as a team, we have slowly grown in membership and have very active ACC team racing (virtually every evening) we have made a few challenges and team USA have accepted our challenge, BUT now we are informed that we as a team are not inline with rule 3, can the commitee/admin explain the point of rule 3 as I dont see that we gain an advantage by being multi-national in fact sometimes on Teamspeak it is a disadvantage. In most clubs that I have been associated with they try to encourage new and diverse membership, why discourage? I do note there are other teams with multi-national members, do they all conform to rule 3 ? I dont want to be argumentative I am just very puzzled.

John. (ALB)

[NuuK(Soulwave)]

We define the rule in order to vitalize the teams. We want avoit that people create a team (esp. for the WTRC) without any relationship to each other (just because they thing that they are the best single players). We want that people creating the best teams of skipper (and not putting the best skippers on one team).


Best regards,
Holger

[jiel]

Hi Holger !

I can understand what was your goal. I of course know that UNT was not the target, however there are problems which raises now :

1/ why there was not a debate among the ITBYC members, but maybe we (UNT and some others teams) were just guests and had no rights ?

2/ why did you use the nationality criteria to reach yours goals ? Didnt you merge WTRC problems with the ITBYC challenges system ?
An activity criteria would be better in my mind. Because my team is national it is a good team, because my team is international it is a bad team ? Maybe you think about the langauge barrier that we (UNT) meet avery day ? But as you certainly know, in Team Racing it is not necessary to talk a lot, on the contrary !

Again, I understand the goal you gave but dont see (until now) the connection with the new rule... Being new in TR, sorry if there are objective and rational facts that i dont know.

Anyway, i wish you good winds, thanks you to let us to use the forum for discussions.

We shall be back soon

Jean-Luc

[AIMO]

Hi "national" and "international" friends for team racing!
I'm looking very interested about the discussion in ITBYC in puncto team race challenge with national members only (Rule 3).
Are there any problems if good friends and skippers, living in several countries, and where is a good understanding, integrate herself to an independent team? My opinion to this theme is NO!!! I would therefore recommend that RULE 3 will be modified or cancelled entirely!
In case of doubt we could voting pro et contra.
Thanks a lot for your attention!

Cheers, Rick (AIMO) UN

[NuuK(Soulwave)]

1/ why there was not a debate among the ITBYC members, but maybe we (UNT and some others teams) were just guests and had no rights ?

Also the ITBYC didnt decide this. There is a VTC Race Comittee which talk about the organisation. You can trust me there was a lively conversation about it and the final result is that rule you see above.

2/ why did you use the nationality criteria to reach yours goals ? Didnt you merge WTRC problems with the ITBYC challenges system ?
An activity criteria would be better in my mind. Because my team is national it is a good team, because my team is international it is a bad team ?

Our goals are to stabilize the Team Racing Community. And in our oppinion this is a way to go to counteract the trend of "single-player-teams" back to teams.

Holger

[ALB]

Hi All, I am still puzzled, who are these single player teams? I dont see any dominating the races, why are we sent to the inactive bin when there are other teams with no national identity and also do not conform to rule 1.3.3 and of what relevence is the date the player signed up ?

John.

[admiral 1]

The possibility of concentration of the best players was recognised as a hinderence to the aim of the VTC which basically is to promote team racing, it is thought that this is served best by a balanced competition. As transfer of players started to happen, it was deemed necessary to put a limit to those.
To make teams represent a country (yes that still would allow countries to concentrate players as they wish) was seen as the easiest to verify commonality.

This only concerns the ITBYC's VTC and (very likely) the ITBYC's WTRC

At no time this means that you can't do team races in any other championship etc. (My guess is you will agree that world championships usually are friendly competitions between nations

It at no time means there can't be a "Champions League" where the best players that can be bought can sail for a team which has most to offer. (If you're scratching your head now, i did too, until I learned there are already sponsored skippers /teams out there.. )

Apart from then nationality clause in §3.2, §3.5 prescribes the boat type to be used
You can look it up but you'll notice Team Europe for now is not eligible to race, which so far doesn't stop us from being registered, nor does it stop us from
doing friendlies, nor does it stop us from keeping our own scores. In fact were it not summer we already would have send UNT a friendly note, as some of our team would like to do teamracing in ACC.. And that the ACC IMHO has some disagreeable parameters when it comes to team racing will not hold me from coming along drinking a beer.

Cheers,

Theo.

[SKYPPYNO]

I cannot understand where is the problem ...

A simple solution for this problem is :

1) To define wich is a "team" ( a crew belong to a club , definition of "club" and its headquarter )
2) The rules for a skipper to swap a team ( agreement of both teams , period allowed ...)

The nationality of skippers is a nonsense for me ...

I think at the start of each season , each team must define its crew and keep it for the entire season ... I know it is difficult to build a ranking for teamracing , but , because of turnover of many skippers in virtualskipper, it is virtually impossible to keep the same team for a lot of time.

Pino

[Junior MALTA]

2/ why did you use the nationality criteria to reach yours goals ? Didnt you merge WTRC problems with the ITBYC challenges system ?
An activity criteria would be better in my mind. Because my team is national it is a good team, because my team is international it is a bad team ?

Our goals are to stabilize the Team Racing Community. And in our oppinion this is a way to go to counteract the trend of "single-player-teams" back to teams.

You know why they used this criteria? cause they saw international teams getting stronger day by day and they are afraid of losing their domination on VSK!

why did you make a rule stating that teams formed before XXXX are exhonerated? cause all the teams in the VTC committee where formed before the date stated!

are we playing for fun or to see who is the strongest in VSK?

regards,
Darren

[admiral 1]

are we playing for fun or to see who is the strongest in VSK?

the latter under the premise of the earlier or the basic principle of sportsmanship and good manors.

Do we want the VTC to be like the EUFA Championleague that biases clubs unwilling to rake up debt or unwilling to sell out to a billionairs.

As a situation developed where teams were abandoned to form ad-hoc teams this was seen as a departure of sportsmanship and good manors.
You do not have to agree with that. But that was the conclusion drawn here. To curb abandonment of teams to form ad-hoc teams,
the most effective measure was put into place. Effective here is not just related to curbing the unwanted behavior but also to the implementation of the measure.

- the measure(s) advances team stability
- the measure(s) assures a verifiable commonality beyond individual capability
- the measure(s) allows deepening of player involvement nationally
- the measure(s) implementation involves little or no human interaction

Nationality / Citizenship / Residence are all verify-able. "Friends", clubs etc. are deemed as not.
If you gather a team, and want to race in or for the VTC you can rest (almost 100%) assured that no team dominates for ever (it may take a change of generation but any nation can bring a winning team sometime). It is statistically improbable that one nation dominates always and for ever.

"Friends" , Clubs etc. can always attract any player they desire to maintain their status quo, nations can't.

In the meantime you can gather any team to sail in any teamracing event where your team is elligible to race.
If you really want to take part in the VTC, if you are not given an exemption, then i suggest to make some more friends so you can have national sub-teams
or you allow teammates to sail in their (a) national team which can take part in the VTC. (Are friends no longer friends when you sail against them?)

NOTE: unless the NOR and or SI of the WTRC explicitly state so, the VTC regulations are not related to the WTRC or any other event for that matter. This includes any
other event where ITBYC or their members play a role. Including ITBYC race-nights etc.

[euphoria]

You know why they used this criteria? cause they saw international teams getting stronger day by day and they are afraid of losing their domination on VSK!

Then who was dominating? As far as I'm concered, there has never been any domination on the team racing scene. We introduced new rules to keep the game as unchanged as possible, and for the best of the growth of VSK TR future. You can disagree with our tools, but not our intentions...

why did you make a rule stating that teams formed before XXXX are exhonerated? cause all the teams in the VTC committee where formed before the date stated!

Please not that bitter tone. Absolutely all teams were allowed to keep their forigners, except the international team created just before WTRC 2010 (and the ACC team). That does of course include the teams represented bye the committee members, as well as the rest of the active teams. Still the maximum of 1 international on the water at a time is the main restriction, which there is no exhoneration from.

Harald

[Aus26]

Personally I think its a very good idea that keeps a even perspective on all teams.

Just as a question though, when the WTRC is on, knowing that teams must be registered with ITBYC, what restrictions does it put on some teams?

I understand only 1 international member in each team is a requirement, however, there seems to be a lot more 'international' teams with many members from differing countries.

Are they eligible to nominate for the WTRC 2011?

[euphoria]

The limit is max 1 international on the water at a time. So the team may have more internationals, but they can't be on the water together.

Harald

[Skiffie]

3 NATIONAL CRITERIA
1. Each team shall represent a country.
2. All members of the team shall be citizens of the country the team is representing, except when a member is approved according to article 1.3.3.
3. The VTC Race Committee may approve use of an international member under one of the following premises:
* The international has been a member of the team at least since 2009.
* The country the team is representing does not have enough VSK sailors in order to line up a full team.
* The country the international member is citizen of does not have enough VSK sailors in order to line up a full team.
4. The teams may use a maximum of 1 international member on the water at a time.

Some very interesting criteria here! I have some clarifications for the VTC RC...

Question: if a team is new (formed say in 2010), but the "international" member has been a member of a club in the team's country "at least since 2009", does this satisfy the criteria of 1.3.3 first bullet?

Question: Is permanent residency status recognised when determining eligibility under 1.3.2?

[Aus26]

The limit is max 1 international on the water at a time. So the team may have more internationals, but they can't be on the water together.

Harald

Thanks for clearing that up for us Harald.

This set ruling means that there may be some teams ineligible to nominate as they are now for next years WTRC.

I am glad that you have stated this rule now as it gives those teams who may not be in compliance an opportunity to change their teams around so that they do.