Pen and 60 secs

[Aquabat]

I was on the side of leaving it at 60 secs until today.

I was in a large race somewhere in the middle of the pack. I was given a pen at the windward mark (incorrect) but by the time I had dropped the spi and found some room the 60 sec had gone .. the race was ruined ..

So I spent some time running downwind having a beer and thinking about this .. more in relation to the the windward mark. Setting the Spi and dropping takes 30 sec approx .. that leaves 30 ses to do the pen .. so not much time to find a spot to do the 360 and keep clear of the rest of the fleet when you jsut rounded the mark in a close race.

This is why I think there are loads of pens be given by other boats doing 360s. They have no choice or they get another 360, so might as well try and get away with doing a pen in the middle of the fleet.

[admiral 1]

when the pen is incorrect you have no chance but ask for cancellation...

.. sailing clear as soon as possible may very well include, sheeting out and let the fleet pass. There are a lot of diverent opinions on the matter. IMO
if one broke a rule.. and the pen is correct......360 is mild enough .... one shouldn't be allowed to follow any other object goal then doing the pen from the moment one transgressed.. moreover the rule is there and everybody is treated equally.

The rule usually tells one what not to do with the aim of preventing one from doing just that by awarding what one did with a penalty. The harshness of the penalty will dictate how serious one takes the rule. Imagine how much room ROW would get, how concerned everybody would be about the rules, how gentlemanlike all would behave, when any trangression would lead to immediate DSQ.... Basically what i'm saying is before worrying about having only 60 seconds, worry about why you got the pen in the first place.

Ofcourse you're free to disagree... :beer:



Edited By admiral 1 on 1181557242

[euphoria]

If our choice was a time limit which gave enough time to start the penalty turn in any condition, then we would not have been doing our job. There are pros and cons on both sides of the equilibrium, and we can't listen with only one ear. I'm happy to hear you have been in a situation where you could not start your turn in time. I have not been there yet, and I was afraid the time given was too long :p.

Of course you're free to disagree... :beer:

[Aquabat]

You are both talking complete rubbish ... as per normal :p :beer:

No .. really ... both of you are talking complete sense as always .. and for that I always respect what you say.

BUT ..

There are times because I am not either of you that I make mistakes in vsk life (not that I expect you to understand what mistake means :p). I do though expect to have the chance to make good my mistakes. (in fact I remember a time in when I was quite young when a pen was a dsq / retirment and that was it).

sailing clear as soon as possible may very well include, sheeting out and let the fleet pass

This is fine and I agree, but after the windward mark with the spi up... there was no chance to drop it again .. get clear and do the pen ... FACT ... no discussion here .. RACE OVER ..which is fine if that is clear and in the rules, immediate DSQ

If our choice was a time limit which gave enough time to start the penalty turn in any condition

This is a crazy idea .. and not what I said at all. What I was trying to put over ... that in the middle of a big race (and they are much larger in VSK5) I just needed a bit more time. You read too much into my statement harald .. its like me saying after reading yours, that you would like ISAF rule to really have a 60 second limit in real life.

In ISAF rules .. you have a chance to do your 360 safely... and have a chance to carry on. What is happening in VSK5 is that you do not have the chance to do then pen before getting clear... so people do it straight away whilst they have no chance of keeping clear ( the other choice is to wait and get another 360), either way their race is over .. unless they get lucky and the skipper gets out of their way (its a 50/50 situation at best)

To be clear a penalty turn should happen ...but VSK5 is making more pens happen because the time limit is too short. THIS IS WRONG. its making skippers do turns when they do not have the room because the only other option is another 360 because 60 secs has gone (30 in fact if you need to drop the spi).

Harald ... ISAF have good rules for a reason, we both agree .. and where possible VSK should follow them, we both agree ...

HOWEVER

very good skippers like you might not understand the problem that a lot of middle fleet races are having ...they are getting pens (fair or unfair) and not having a chance to serve their sentance, which they want to do.. this is very worng. All we are talking about here might be another 30 secs.

Question "why is another 30 secs wrong ?"


anyway ... have a :beer: ... just another Rob rant...long time since the wife let me have any `fun`!!

please forgive me.

Rob

[euphoria]

Another 30 is wrong because 90% of the people would abuse the additional 30.

People don't have to do the pen right away. The problem is that people don't start to find ways right after they get the penalty. You have 60 secs to get out. You don't have to complete the turn in 60 secs, you only have to start it (by tacking or gybing).

This is as much a host responsibility. You don't host a 25 size fleet race with a short start line and a 4 minute first leg.

Harald

[Aquabat]

This is as much a host responsibility. You don't host a 25 size fleet race with a short start line and a 4 minute first leg.

Then make that the ISAF rule !! ...

Again crazy .. and in fact not really true ...you can have a 25 fleet with 8 min 1st leg and still be bunched up at the windward mark.

VSK5 should as far as possible match ISAF ..which is not happening as far as 60 secs pen.

you have not really answered the question.

In my experiance 90% of the races abuse the 60 sec because they are forced into a corner ..ie they have no other choice but to start the 360 ... even though they cannot do it with giving or receiving a pen.

Example ..

As you round the windward mark and have pressed 4, you get a pen, boat to windward, leeward and a couple behind, followed by the rest of the fleet. Within the next 60 secs you have no chance to complete the pen. NONE ..

Tell me what are the options ? u can ease the sails ? throw out the anchor ?

ALSO .. this is not just about the person who has the pen to clear .. BUT many a time I have rounded the mark with no pen just to be given one by a poor skipper who has had no other choice really ... and I end up with the pen or a broached ACC trying to keep clear.

anyway ... thats it from me on this topic. there is no chance of the 60 sec pen changing ... and in some ways that is good for VSK because is suggests that the key players have key influence within NADEO and overal that is a very very good thing which I completely support.

:beer:

Rob

[euphoria]

You may have missed something:
You don't have to complete the pen within 60 seconds.

With an 8 minute first leg, it would of course be less boats rounding at the same time than in a 4 minute first leg.

An important option, which you don't mention, is if necessary to luff other boats to generate room to leeward to spin in. If you don't do that, then you are breaking a rule for not getting clear of other boats asap and deserve another penalty. 60 secs is more than enough even with a boat to windward, leeward and behind at a top mark.

Harald

[Aquabat]

is if necessary to luff other boats to generate room to leeward to spin in. If you don't do that, then you are breaking a rule for not getting clear of other boats asap and deserve another penalty

Not sure that is correct

20.2 A boat making a penalty turn shall keep clear of one that is not.

[euphoria]

You are not under rule 20.2 when you are maneuvering to a spot where you can make the turn. 20.2 turns on the moment you start spinning. In match racing, 20.2 turns on the moment you tack or gybe as a part of the turn, which is adopted in general by VSK as the definition on when you start the penalty turn.

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making two turns in the same direction, including two tacks and two gybes.

1. First you get clear
2. Then you take the penalty
Rule 20.2 is refering to the second part of 44.2.

Harald

[admiral 1]

Cutting through the symptons here guys. The real cause is
the VSK Umpire unable to cascade beyond one boat. In any 2 boat situation, a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th etc. ROW boat is an obstruction... Simply said. A right of way boat must give a giveway boat room to keep clear from another right of way boat. However you should really read up on the rules for proper interpretation.
Some sources you'll find here. (just klick one the appropriate links in the document) About ITBYC


Before we misunderstand, that's not a bug, it's a missing feature. And it is a feature possibly missing on purpose as you need exponential increasing computing power for the umpire's workload. I don't know whether it's possible to write the code to do it but when 25 boats bunch up at the mark instead of considering and deciding on right of way 24 times the umpire has to consider and decide 600 times and that at least 20 times per second....

Anyway this leads to invalid pens, or pens that should have been canceled. The 60 seconds here is not an issue, the cancelation is the issue.

Are we looking for a solution for that problem or are we looking at how sailing clear as soon as possible is enforced?

There's no sanction for not getting well clear as soon as possible.
You have 60 seconds to tack or gybe starting your penalty turn before the counter stops. So sailing clear is done with the aim of getting hurt as little as possible before taking that pen. However getting well clear as soon as possible is difficult to argue as anything different from sailing clear immediatly.

In effect any thing done to escape from getting clear as soon as possible (and not complying with the sanction) should lead to further sanctions. That sanction should happen as soon as possible has passed . A right of way boat (clear ahead also) that has to sail clear may press her rights, though i never had an issue with proper course there, so i'm not in the clear on that.

So when you got a pen either you are sailing clear ( to get clear as soon as possible) , or you are doing that pen. From the moment it is possible. You will have to PROOF that it is not possible immediatly, and immediatly all over the world usually is counted in milliseconds rather then minutes.

What about:
sailing immediatly clear =
VMG less then 50% of optimum 5 seconds after getting the pen OR penalty turn should have started?
Q: Would that describe sailing clear ?
Q: Is the decrease in VMG enough or too much?
Q: Would it work?

After sailing clear, or any time sooner, starting penalty turn should happen = tack or gybe within 60 seconds?

About ITBYC



Edited By admiral 1 on 1181653039

[Skiffie]

...the moment you tack or gybe as a part of the turn, which is adopted in general by VSK as the definition on when you start the penalty turn....

Harald

Okay, what if the best option is to bear-away then gybe due to that being the only available room? The manoeuvre has clearly started but won't be considered started until the gybe has happened (maybe up to 150° of turning first)?

[euphoria]

If there is room to spin in, what is the problem? If there is not room to spin in, she will most likely get a pen for breaking either rule 10, 11 or 16.1, if there is contact before she gybes.

Harald

[CAN Knot]

I was under the impression that you had 60 seconds to complete the turn... I'm sure I've received R44 pens while spinning... but that doesn't seem to be the case and 60 seconds is plenty of time to start a turn. I can' think of a fleet so large that everyone won't sail past you in one minute if you have your sails luffing.

I also agree that adding another 30 seconds to the time limit will just lead to (more) abuse. As it is, the 60 second limit is abused almost every chance people have. I've seen ITBYC members handing out bad penalties during their 60 second window rather than doing their penalty turn

[Aquabat]

One of the odd things here is ..

1) that I not see people abuse the 360 /60s rule. When I do its because they cannot keep clear .. so they just get on and do the pen right in the middle of the fleet and pray that the boats behind will keep clear.

2) had a race again today ... I made a mistake, broached hit another boat as I was rounding the mark.. and ended up in the middle of 4 boats with a few behind too. I was not close enough to luff so eased the sails to slow down ... the result was the boats behind caught up .. therefor still no room windward or leeward... so got another pen. What I do not understand here is that you cannot understand the problem I have at all.. I will have a look and see if I have the replay and maybe post that.

3) What is the rule about PC and luffing very soon after the mark, ie close to the layline, is there an issue here when trying to get clear.

4) I still go back to my point about getting a pen at windward mark as you raise the spi. By time time you have raised it, dropped it, luffed a windward boat (who's race is now ruined too) there is still no time to a pen. it takes about 30 secs to raise and drop the spi .. then u have to keep clear. There really is not enough time. I mostly found in VSK4 that there was enough time.

Rob

[Aquabat]

And ...thinking about this more....this is the situation that I really hate about the 60 secs

I had two races this evening .. and they were both ruined by other boats doing pens right in the middle of fleet, right in front of me ... both times I was given a pen ...

now I guess they only did this because

1) they were idiots.
2) they know that 60 secs is not enough time, so do then pen ASAP and hope that anyone gets out of their way.

Rob