rule 17

[Shura]

standard situation


at position 2, the blue boat becomes linked to the green boat at position 17 and the yellow boat at position 11.
in position 3, green protests against blue and yellow according to rule 17
I believe that only yellow should be fined under rule 17

your opinion please

[euphoria]

Yellow did not establish overlap on neither blue or green from clear astern, so she may sail above her proper course.
Blue cannot sail above her proper course, but her proper course is to keep clear of yellow, so blue is not sailing above her proper course.
No boats broke rule 17.

Harald

[Jean-Luc Dellis]

Good situation whose I didnt know how to decide. TY Harald to have brought light there. TY Shur also.

Now if the distance Blue-Yellow is above, lets say one boat length, I think, Blue being under 17, is not allowed to luff. When the distance is below one length, Blue under 11 must luff. Do you agree ?

[euphoria]

Yes, blue can't luff until she has to. But we have to give some slack, she can't wait until the very last moment, because then it's maybe only 50% chance she is keeping clear of Yellow... It's hard to give an exact acceptable gap, as it depends on relative positions between boats. I think blue only will be penalized if she luffs clearly too early. On the other hand, if she luffs in order to make space to gybe behind yellow, then probably it's her proper course.

It's also worth mentioning that if yellow and blue was overlapped with luffing right for yellow, and then later blue overlaps green from clear astern, with only indirect overlap from yellow on green, then yellow can't sail above proper course. Because her overlap (indirect) on green was from clear astern.

Harald

[Shura]

added position 4
the same question

[Jean-Luc Dellis]

Its the same that first picture : Blue must keep clear from yellow so Blue is on his proper course and 17 is not violated.

[Shura]

I add one more example .
TR 2021 02 26 SoVa vs team blues rule 17



I wrote a protest against an Sova in the chat 2 times in moments on screenshots

[Jean-Luc Dellis]

Sova overlapped Shur from behind and leeward. He violated rule 17 when he luffed just before the mark.
Jean-Luc

[Shura]

Sova overlapped Shur from behind and leeward. He violated rule 17 when he luffed just before the mark.
Jean-Luc

Mark overlapped with Shuraz from behind and leeward too.
I think ,SoVa broken rule 17 when it goes above the mark.

[euphoria]

The clue here is that late in the situation Sova's stern is ahead of Shuraz bow, so apparently he is clear ahead if you look on the ISAF panel in VSK. But Mark is between them and overlap both, which means that Sova and Shuraz stilll are overlapped by definition, and rule 17 still applies.

Harald

[Shura]

thanks Harald , Jean Luc !

now you can add this case to the collection

[Shura]

added another example

TR 2022 01 07 start WMR1 broken R17

[euphoria]

Ilya is luffing to keep clear of WMR1, so this is his proper course.
It seems like WMR1 was clear ahead of Ilya and Shura, so rule 17 does not apply to him.

Harald

[Shura]

that is, when the overlap occurs across a medium boat Rule 17 does not apply.
but between the three boats only 11 and 16 are in effect ?
and rule 17 applies again if the leeward one makes gube .
I did understand correctly ?

[Jean-Luc Dellis]

rule 17 with 3 boats.jpg (46.36 KiB) Viewed 5342 times

From the attached picture (JL)

It is a little unclear what the initial situation is between Yellow and N-Green.
There is no information on how the overlap between these two boats was established.
But let me assume Yellow overlapped N-Green from clear astern (position 0). Yes 17 applied to Yellow versus N-Green (JL)

Q 1 : May S-Green luff in position 3 ? Then, does Yellow break 17 versus N-Green ?
Yes, S-Green is not restricted by rule 17, it does not apply to her, so she may sail above her proper course.
No, Yellow is not breaking rule 17 because she is sailing her proper course, which is to keep clear of S-Green.
So I agree with you there.

Q 2 : Same questions but reverse places : N-Green is sailing in the middle and Yellow is the northernmost boat now.
Same answer as in Q1. It doesn't matter who are team mates for this question.
Rule 17 does not apply for S-Green because S-Green has not established overlap from clear astern.
If it was a special rule for rule 17 with team mates, it would have been written in RRS Appendix D.
Harald